"What matters it what went before or after
Now with myself I will begin and end"

Marian, I beg to differ about the author being Shakespeare. ALL of the words of the man who wrote with that name are well documented. When I googled the exact words only 11 replies came for that quotation. Including this one:

[www.quotationspage.com]

which says that the author is anonymous. I'm afraid that Mr. Bill Mollison who also credits the bard with the quotation is mistaken. For if it were truly a Shakespearean quote such as this: "What fools these mortals be" there would be several thousand replies to the quotation search on Google and other search engines.


Les





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2005 02:22PM by lg.

That may be why I can't find it in Shakespeare! I got it from the same book as the Housman - perhaps attributing it to Shakespeare is a popular misconception. Thanks, Les.

Sounds as if it might be found in Henley's Invictus, but no.

The anonymous attribute is not much help, especially with the rest of the verse lacking. Can't be a couplet, I mean. Surely 'after' must have its rhyme (likely in a previous line) with 'laughter'. I can think of several candidates for the rhyme with 'end', probably fend, send, lend or mend.

Reminds me of Tichburne's elegy as well:

[www.mcs.drexel.edu]

My glass is full, and now my glass is run,
And now I live, and now my life is done.

Unfortunately Marian, many people are desparate to attribute a favorite quotation to somebody who is famous. Shakespeare and Mark Twain seem to fit nicely into most people's misconceptions, as likely candidates for this process.

As to your quote, I will check further, but a brief search of the Shakespearean reference sites show nothing yet.


Les

Perhaps if we asked P.D. James- one site attributes the original quote to one of her books.

"See P.J. James' novel A Taste for Death - Book 2, chapter 7. "Two half-remembered lines of Shakespeare which had met her eyes when she had casually opened the book in the school library had become for her the philosophy by which she intended to live." Your quote follows, but no info. as to where it might be found in Shakespeare's work. " [westerncanon.com]


pam

Nice catch, Pam. I'm always leery of quotes from Shakespeare which do not site the play, or sonnet from which it is derived.


Les



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2005 01:59AM by lg.

The P D James book is where I found the quote, attributed by the character using it to Shakespeare, and as her research is usually good, I was convinced it was Shakespeare. The book centres on a character with the same name as one in Love's Labours Lost, so perhaps I should look there.

Here are her publisher and agent - perhaps they might respond?

Contact information
Publisher (All enquiries except rights)
Faber and Faber Ltd
3 Queen Square
London WC1N 3AU
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7465 0045
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7465 0034
E-mail: gapublicity@faber.co.uk
[www.faber.co.uk]


Agent (Rights permissions)
Greene & Heaton Ltd
37 Goldhawk Road
London W12 8QQ
England
Tel: +44 (0)20 8749 0315
Fax: +44 (0)20 8749 0318
E-mail: info@greeneheaton.co.uk
[www.greeneheaton.co.uk]

[www.contemporarywriters.com]


There are two excellent Shakespeare search engines I have used, but neither returns any hits for the quote:


[www.it.usyd.edu.au]

[www.rhymezone.com]




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2005 11:20AM by Hugh Clary.

I'll try that, when I've done all the other, more urgent stuff that seems to have accumulated over the last few weeks, and report back any response - don't hold your breath! I'm rather swamped at the moment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2005 06:06AM by marian2.

>I'll try that, when I've done all the other, more urgent stuff that seems to have accumulated over the last few weeks

More urgent, like Elma Mitchell?



Les



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2005 02:17PM by lg.

Sadly, no - more urgent like paid work, voluntary work, housework - catching up after the 'flu. Elma and P D James are light relief.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2022 04:30AM by marian2.

I honestly believe this one is a hopeless case, Marian. If it were Shakespeare, it would be all over the net, though.


Les

Nil desperandum, Les - I got an e-mail last night from a lady called Deb, who saw this and wasn't able to post on e-mule. She found the quote and here is an extract from her e-mail:

PD James was close. It wasn't Shakespeare, but it was one of his contemporaries. The quote is from a play called "The White Devil", written by John Webster in 1612.

The original goes like this: "...I do not look / Who went before, nor who shall follow me; / No, at myself I will begin the end."

The line is Flamineo's, in Act V, Scene vi

Isn't that great!! - I'm thrilled to bits as I hate loose ends, and had never got around to chasing PD James about it - she might not have the source herself.

Odd. That doesn't really seem close enough to be the same message. But, perhaps so.

[www.gutenberg.org]

Lodo. Strike, strike,
With a joint motion. [They strike.


Vit. 'Twas a manly blow;
The next thou giv'st, murder some sucking infant;
And then thou wilt be famous.


Flam. Oh, what blade is 't?
A Toledo, or an English fox?
I ever thought a culter should distinguish
The cause of my death, rather than a doctor.
Search my wound deeper; tent it with the steel
That made it.


Vit. Oh, my greatest sin lay in my blood!
Now my blood pays for 't.


Flam. Th' art a noble sister!
I love thee now; if woman do breed man,
She ought to teach him manhood. Fare thee well.
Know, many glorious women that are fam'd
For masculine virtue, have been vicious,
Only a happier silence did betide them:
She hath no faults, who hath the art to hide them.


Vit. My soul, like to a ship in a black storm,
Is driven, I know not whither.


Flam. Then cast anchor.
Prosperity doth bewitch men, seeming clear;
But seas do laugh, show white, when rocks are near.
We cease to grieve, cease to be fortune's slaves,
Nay, cease to die by dying. Art thou gone?
And thou so near the bottom? false report,
Which says that women vie with the nine Muses,
For nine tough durable lives! I do not look
Who went before, nor who shall follow me;
No, at my self I will begin the end.
While we look up to heaven, we confound
Knowledge with knowledge. Oh, I am in a mist!


Vit. Oh, happy they that never saw the court,
Nor ever knew great men but by report! [Vittoria dies.


Flam. I recover like a spent taper, for a flash,
And instantly go out.
Let all that belong to great men remember th' old wives' tradition, to
be like the lions i' th' Tower on Candlemas-day; to mourn if the sun
shine, for fear of the pitiful remainder of winter to come.
'Tis well yet there 's some goodness in my death;
My life was a black charnel. I have caught
An everlasting cold; I have lost my voice
Most irrecoverably. Farewell, glorious villains.
This busy trade of life appears most vain,
Since rest breeds rest, where all seek pain by pain.
Let no harsh flattering bells resound my knell;
Strike, thunder, and strike loud, to my farewell! [Dies.

I hadn't noticed, Hugh - I got the e-mail when I was pretty busy and assumed it had the verbatim quote, without reading my original post etc. probperly. Mea Cupla.

However, I think Deborah is right and the Webster play is probably the origin, but over time it has been adapted to make it more understandable to contemporary ears - the dialogue in the Webster play is pretty obscure from that sample. Or, someone else may have borrowed and paraphrased it for another play or poem - but the sense is the same and it's a bit too close to be a coincidence, I feel.

Thanks for looking it up, Hugh - I love plays with a happy ending!!

[www.sparrowsp.addr.com] pages/white_devil.htm

That link is a 404 - this one maybe?

[www.sparrowsp.addr.com]

Do a Find for the word, follow.