I AM LOOKING FOR THE TITLE AND AUTHOR OF A POEM THAT HAS SOME OF THE FOLLOWING LINES:

FOR WANT OF A NAIL THE HORSE WAS LOST
FOR WANT OF A HORSE THE RIDER WAS LOST
FOR WANT OF A RIDER THE MESSAGE WAS LOST
FOR WANT OF THE MESSAGE THE KING WAS LOST
FOR WANT OF A KING THE KINGDOM WAS LOST
ALL FOR THE WANT OF A NAIL

[www.bartleby.com]

I saw it over forty years ago in a nursery rhyme book more like this...

FOR THE WANT OF A NAIL THE SHOE WAS LOST
FOR THE WANT OF A SHOE THE HORSE WAS LOST
FOR THE WANT OF A HORSE THE RIDER WAS LOST
FOR THE WANT OF A RIDER THE BATTLE WAS LOST
FOR THE WANT OF THE BATTLE THE KINGDOM WAS LOST
AND ALL FOR THE WANT OF A NAIL.

Does anyone have any idea how it mutated from Franklin to the longer metrical version, of which I see there are numerous variants on the Web? Assuming that Franklin's quote wasn't itself derivative.

I'm sure that the nursery version I learned, which was closer to Godfrey's than to Francis' version, had the last line 'All for the want of a horseshoe nail', which I think scans better.

Right you are.

[tinyurl.com]

This site credits George Herbert for the nursery rhyme:

[www.jewishsf.com]


Les

If so, he predates wise Benny, but ... he predates nursery rhymes as well. Duddunt sound like none of Herbert's other stuff, neither.

Hunting for a poem which I think is titled "The Deal"
the first line goes . . .
The big cat played on a silver flute, the little cat sat and listened.
I can't remember the author.
Thank you!

Charlie, you are unlikely to find a poem called 'The Deal' at the end of a thread about a kingdom being lost for want of a horeshoe nail !

Go to the top of the page, click on New Topic, and post your new query as the start of a new thread.

does anybody know a specific name for what theory this refers to?

Good question. Looking at [humanities.byu.edu] for Figures of Amplification, auxesis seems to fit the pattern. Sadly, looking up auxesis in other contexts merely shows it synonymous with hyperbole.

Maybe try clicking on the Silva Rhetoric site, then click on auxesis on the right-hand side of the page, and work your way around the figures of amplification possibilities.

The interrelatedness of all things fits as well, if that is what you are looking for.

Thanks for your help. Someone told me it was know as the "chaos theory". Could that fit as well?

Describes the complex and unpredictable motion or dynamics of systems that are sensitive to their initial conditions. Chaotic systems are mathematically deterministic-that is, they follow precise laws, but their irregular behavior can appear to be random to the casual observer.


The explanations I've heard of chaos theory tend to be less connected- the classic one is 'a butterfly flaps its wings in China, which eventually leads to a hurricane in the Atlantic.

The want of a nail seems more direct.

pam

Contingency, surely. The importance of chance and its consequences. Like Cleopatra's nose, or the Burgess Shale.

>Contingency, surely.

Yup. Still, I understand Cleo's callipygian appeal was even more of an attraction than her nose.

I'm real glad you understand Cleo's callipygian appeal, Hugh - it isn't in my dictionary, and I 've forgotten how to get an on-line definition. So I'll stay puzzzled - I'm getting used to it.

Sorry:
Pascal said "Had Cleopatra's nose been an inch longer, history would have been different."
For The Burgess shale and contingency in history, see Gould's Wonderful Life

callipygian = having well-shaped buttocks [New Shorter Oxford].

for want of a nail the world was lost
for want of the world the saviours cost
for want of a nail his blood was lost
all for love a nail to the cross

10.11.05

Chantelle Wilks

Thanks Ian, for the definition - I hadn't seen it till Chantelle's post bumped the thread. A slight lifting of the fog of my confusion was very welcome on a Monday morning! I did know the quote about Cleopatra's nose, but Hugh's obscure 'callypygian' had me beat.

It's definitely more appealing to be callipygian [= botty beautiful] than cacopygian, though the latter isn't quite what it sounds like:

[tinyurl.com]

So, having used your link, that just leaves steatopygean and cariapygean to sort out.

Yes I understand the Hottentots and Bushmen of Southern Africa regard the steatopygian build as pretty fancy; though puzzlingly my SOED doesn't contain the word and lists only its apparent synonyms steatopygial, steatopygous and steatopygic. (Do we really need so many?!)

And, as I'm sure you know, there are cariapygian fanciers in many countries.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2021 10:59PM by IanB.

Marian, bookmark the following website and you shall never be without an internet dictionary: [www.onelook.com]


Les

Thanks, Les. I have an old and much loved Collins 20th Century Dictionary, which is in a state of terminal decreptitude. I like it because it has most of the words I want in it, unlike more modern ones I have tried to replace it with. Despite seeing lots for sale on various Internet sites, whenever I try to buy one at a sensible price, the sale is always cancelled. (4 times so far!) So, perhaps I'll be reduced to using internet dictionaries most of the time.

a couple more:

[www.m-w.com]
[dictionary.cambridge.org]

I also have a paper copy of the Cobuild english dictionary, which has a lot of modern words in it, others don't have.

In the end, using an online dictionary is faster! (but it looks a lot less interesting, and feels a lot less romantic).

> and feels a lot less romantic

Do you want romance, or a definition?


My guess is you won't find a word like curple in the Collins. (Hint: it's not synonomous with callipygian. Though some might think so.)



Les

[www.urbandictionary.com]

Do I want definitions without romance? Nah.

Desi, I have a Webster's unabridged, it weighs about 3 kilos: I never use it, since I got the computer.


Les

I used to use my heavier dictionaries as weights to train my belly muscles. Can't do so anymore, now I'm pregnant. :-)

Anyway, I have installed various dictionaries on my computer (Euroglot, van Dale Dutch-English, English Dutch, and Dutch-dutch, the Kluwer Groot Polytechnisch woordenboek (technical Nl-E, E-NL dictionary) and of course I use online resources. And still I have to use paper dictionaries at times. A specific maritime dictionary does not exist as software yet, for example.

Curpel IS in Chambers - not spelt curple, but the definition is the same as the one I just found online - an obsolete Scottish word for crupper. So now you know, Les, why I want another Chambers 20th Century Dictionary! It cuts the mustard!

Thanks for those other 2 online links, Desi - I'll put them in my favourites - is that the same as bookmarking them - that's another thing I've never got to grips with? What an education e-mule is!

On holiday I came across a German word I would like to know the meaning of, and can't even find online, never mind in my (pocket) German Dictionary. I had more or less given up trying to find it myself and was about to ask e-mulers, esp Desi, when my husband suggested he ask the Swiss girl at work, and has taken the bit of paper with it on - of course I can't remember it, being over 50 and in a state of mental confusion. Watch this space!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 08:13AM by marian2.

Yes, bookmarking them is the same as putting them in your favourites!

I'm sure the swiss girl will be of more help than I am as she is a native speaker of German. I am curious though, so would appreciate it if you let me know the word as soon as you've got the paper back :-)

Another trick to use if you are looking for the meaning of the word is to go to google and to type the word in question and dictionary.

Try it for example: curple dictionary

Thanks Desi - I'll satisfy your curiosity when I get the paper back.

Favourites is Microsoft speak, bookmarking Mozilla (netscape?)

If you are still around Desi, or anyone else multilingual, can you confirm whether Banco Esprito Santo is really translated as Bank of the Holy Spirit. There is a huge branch of what looks like an ordinary bank emblazoned with that title, in Funchal, Madiera, and it seems very strange to me.

Yes, I think so (but I don't speak spanish, so don't take my word as proof. However, I think the bank is named after a family name:

[tinyurl.com]

by the way, I think it should be Espirito instead of Esprito

I find that even wierder - I have heard of people whose first name is Jesus, but wasn't aware that there are people with the surname Holy Spirit! Again, the educational potential of this website and its contributors is immeasurable.

Husband hasn't yet reported on German word or returned paper. Other matters re work are preoccupying him - his priorities are all wrong :-)





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2005 07:30AM by marian2.

The German word is Bernharduner or possibly Bernhardiner. The context is funny notices in a Brit-owned teashop in Madiera. I found a nice one in English about Grandpa's Workshop and all the services he supplied in toymending, classes in riding bikes without stabilizers etc , which we photographed, and there was also one in German which had a pictures of a cat and a dog with scorecards beneath each. The dog's had things like Einbrecker - 7 which I discovered was burglars, Autoreifer -17 (tyres, I think) and the cat one had tights, and parrots etc. The one word, above, which I couldn't fathom was for the cat. The Swiss girl couldn't help.

[www.searchadv.com]

sure it wasn't bernhardiner? Eh, ok, just read your message properly. The first meaning is a Dog, the St. Bernhard dog, the second meaning is clergy. Bernardine in English. A tyre is Autoreifen (with an n).

St Bernards it is, then - thanks Desi - unless it is an atheist cat which claws visiting vicars! It's amazing how difficult it is to simply copy words correctly and in a manner you can read, when you don't know what they mean - like typing lists of numbers - you make unknown assumptions and deceive yourself into error.

>cariapygian

?

Now it is my turn to confess ignorance. In the context, sounds like a narrow ass, but I can't be sure.

Possibly narrow, but more importantly feathered. Say it aloud, Hugh. With a soft g. 'Twas just a little English joke from Marian2.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2005 08:19PM by IanB.

Zounds! Tagged by the egregious pun, ouch! Nice work.

Going back to the original "for want of a nail" query.

The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes gives as the oldest version
"The want of a nail loseththe shoe, the loss of a shoe troubles the horse, the horse endangereth the rider, the rider breaking his rank molests the companyso far as to hazard the whole army."
Thomas Adams, Collected Sermons, 1629.

Interesting. George Herbert lived 1593-1633, so that falls in the Collected Sermons time frame of 1629,

[en.wikiquote.org]

[www.luminarium.org]

Who was Thomas Adams, though? If he was merely collecting sermons of others, Herbert could still be the source. If the sermons were those collected from Adams, then we don't know who plagiarized whom.

The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes says the sermon is Adams'. It does mention Herbert, "For want of a nail the shoe is lost; for want of a shoe the horse is lost; for want of a horse the rider is lost" but the book is his Outlandish Proverbs, published 1640.

Looks like this is the one, [www.radford.edu]

Isn't it fun when you get a new book?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2006 12:43PM by Linda.

[www.bartleby.com]

Les

Oh - Jacula Prudentum! You will never guess what I thought at first.