Is this a knock at colonialsism? Kipling was for colonialsim wasn't he? Can someone give me some insight to this poem?

Also, for any of you English, I have a question. When I visited England last March I thought it quite odd that certain neigborhoods (or maybe larger) prohibit the flying of the flag, in your own yard for instance. A friend of ours had a boat that he sailed on the Thames and he was only allowed to have the Union Jack (he is American) and was not allowed to fly an American flag along with it. Any thoughts on that?


The English Flag
by Rudyard Kipling

Above the portico a flag-staff, bearing the Union Jack,
remained fluttering in the flames for some time, but ultimately
when it fell the crowds rent the air with shouts,
and seemed to see significance in the incident. -- DAILY PAPERS.


Winds of the World, give answer! They are whimpering to and fro --
And what should they know of England who only England know? --
The poor little street-bred people that vapour and fume and brag,
They are lifting their heads in the stillness to yelp at the English Flag!

Must we borrow a clout from the Boer -- to plaster anew with dirt?
An Irish liar's bandage, or an English coward's shirt?
We may not speak of England; her Flag's to sell or share.
What is the Flag of England? Winds of the World, declare!

The North Wind blew: -- "From Bergen my steel-shod vanguards go;
I chase your lazy whalers home from the Disko floe;
By the great North Lights above me I work the will of God,
And the liner splits on the ice-field or the Dogger fills with cod.

"I barred my gates with iron, I shuttered my doors with flame,
Because to force my ramparts your nutshell navies came;
I took the sun from their presence, I cut them down with my blast,
And they died, but the Flag of England blew free ere the spirit passed.

"The lean white bear hath seen it in the long, long Arctic night,
The musk-ox knows the standard that flouts the Northern Light:
What is the Flag of England? Ye have but my bergs to dare,
Ye have but my drifts to conquer. Go forth, for it is there!"

The South Wind sighed: -- "From the Virgins my mid-sea course was ta'en
Over a thousand islands lost in an idle main,
Where the sea-egg flames on the coral and the long-backed breakers croon
Their endless ocean legends to the lazy, locked lagoon.

"Strayed amid lonely islets, mazed amid outer keys,
I waked the palms to laughter -- I tossed the scud in the breeze --
Never was isle so little, never was sea so lone,
But over the scud and the palm-trees an English flag was flown.

"I have wrenched it free from the halliard to hang for a wisp on the Horn;
I have chased it north to the Lizard -- ribboned and rolled and torn;
I have spread its fold o'er the dying, adrift in a hopeless sea;
I have hurled it swift on the slaver, and seen the slave set free.

"My basking sunfish know it, and wheeling albatross,
Where the lone wave fills with fire beneath the Southern Cross.
What is the Flag of England? Ye have but my reefs to dare,
Ye have but my seas to furrow. Go forth, for it is there!"

The East Wind roared: -- "From the Kuriles, the Bitter Seas, I come,
And me men call the Home-Wind, for I bring the English home.
Look -- look well to your shipping! By the breath of my mad typhoon
I swept your close-packed Praya and beached your best at Kowloon!

"The reeling junks behind me and the racing seas before,
I raped your richest roadstead -- I plundered Singapore!
I set my hand on the Hoogli; as a hooded snake she rose,
And I flung your stoutest steamers to roost with the startled crows.

"Never the lotus closes, never the wild-fowl wake,
But a soul goes out on the East Wind that died for England's sake --
Man or woman or suckling, mother or bride or maid --
Because on the bones of the English the English Flag is stayed.

"The desert-dust hath dimmed it, the flying wild-ass knows,
The scared white leopard winds it across the taintless snows.
What is the Flag of England? Ye have but my sun to dare,
Ye have but my sands to travel. Go forth, for it is there!"

The West Wind called: -- "In squadrons the thoughtless galleons fly
That bear the wheat and cattle lest street-bred people die.
They make my might their porter, they make my house their path,
Till I loose my neck from their rudder and whelm them all in my wrath.

"I draw the gliding fog-bank as a snake is drawn from the hole,
They bellow one to the other, the frighted ship-bells toll,
For day is a drifting terror till I raise the shroud with my breath,
And they see strange bows above them and the two go locked to death.

"But whether in calm or wrack-wreath, whether by dark or day,
I heave them whole to the conger or rip their plates away,
First of the scattered legions, under a shrieking sky,
Dipping between the rollers, the English Flag goes by.

"The dead dumb fog hath wrapped it -- the frozen dews have kissed --
The naked stars have seen it, a fellow-star in the mist.
What is the Flag of England? Ye have but my breath to dare,
Ye have but my waves to conquer. Go forth, for it is there!"

You need planning permission from the local council to put up a flag pole and mostly you don't get it. And in some areas it is considered racist (or at least showing extreem right wing views) to fly the Union flag.

I think a boat only flies the flag of the country of its registration and of its host nation. So a British registered boat in British waters would only fly the Union flag, an American boat in British waters would fly both flags. I may not be accurate with that so if anyone knows better please tell us.

I've just been looking up the circumstances of The English Flag in Carrington's biography of Kipling. Prior to this he had been regarded as a hostile critic of Indian policy and administration. This is his first imperialist poem. "It contains ....no arrogance about the Flag as a symbol; it asserts no moral or material superiority for Englishmen or the English way of life; it is a call to service and to sacrifice in every land and sea. The sentiment is now a little out-moded, but it was new in Victorian England, when the 'street-bred' English werehardly yet aware that they had responsibilities away from home."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2021 05:29PM by Linda.

I can't imagine having to get permission to fly a flag (let alone just to put up a flag pole) in America. My husband's friend, who is American and has lived in England for the past 15 years put up an American flag in his own yard after the 9/11 Terrorist attacks and was asked by his neighbor to please take it down. Unbleivable!

I have been thinking about this flag issue more often. In the Netherlands it is, like in England, also frowned upon to wave the flag around. There are three occassions where it is accepted: Queensday, football and after graduation (together with a schoolbag).

I think the main difference is the second world war here in Europe. Ever since, nationalism (and waving the flag) is really considered to be something only extremists do, for example neo-nazis. So, the connotations we have with the flag are entiry different than americans have. In this respect, you are still a young and relatively innocent nation (on your own soil at least). No neighbours of yours have been tortured, killed or deported by people wearing the american flag, you see.

I must say I found the whole flag thing in the US after 9/11 very scary. For me it seemed to mean "we are going to teach the rest of the world a lesson, and we're going to be extreme about it. See, the whole nation agrees (i.e. everyone waving a flag)". It was then that I started to think about it, by the way. And I understood that americans have just positive feelings and connotations with their flag.

Flag laws don't necessarily have to make any sense, especially in the United States. For example, folks get upset when the bad guys burn the Stars and Stripes, yet the only acceptable method of destroying old and tattered flags is to burn them. Go figure.

It's probably the burning with a crowd they get upset about :-)

Desi....we Americans have just as many reasons to not proudly wave our flag i.e slavery, stealing land from the Native Americans, etc. However, we don't hold that against our patriotism. We are still proud of the things we have overcome. Yes, we think the entire world should have our form of government, but that's not because we are full of ourselves (even if we are) but because we truly believe in our American Democracy. (by we I mean those of us who proudly wave our flad, as there are plenty here who have views more closely matched with the Brits or the Canadians).

As far as burning the flag...we don't like it being done for purposes of protest or showing a distatse for America, after all, you can still burn the flag in America without breaking a law....and that is exactly why we think you shouldn't do it.

"we Americans have just as many reasons to not proudly wave our flag i.e slavery, stealing land from the Native Americans, etc"

I think every country has reasons like this not to be nationalistic, but what I mean is that we connotate "waving the flag" with "nationalism" which we connotate with "nazi's"/discrimination/extremism, etc. Of course, this is my theory, and I can't speak for everyone.

I am sure before the second world war things were different, and people waved the flag proudly in the Netherlands.

And to make my point even stronger, I am pretty partriotic. I am very proud of the Dutch political system, and dutch culture. (although there are of course things I do not agree with). But I would never wave with the flag. So, I am not saying that not waving the flag means people are not patriotic or proud of their country. It is an issue solely with the flag!

(I would definately NOT like the Netherlands to get the same kind of democracy as the US. No offense :-) )

as a footnote. I think if something like 9/11 would happen in the netherlands, the attitude towards the flag might change. Or, more likely, we would start waving orange around. I think we show nationalism with the color, not the flag.

The orange seems uniquely Dutch, I don't think I could identify the Netherlands' flag without working through several other possiblities. The Orange Order wave the Union flag and worry people.

FYI: [www.minbuza.nl]
It's the same as the french one, but then the right way around of course ;-)

and as you can read here, not everyone agrees with dutchreport.blogspot.com]>

coincidentily, here is someone who explains what I tried to say:
[www.jihadwatch.org]

"The same thing has already happened in Sweden. Two Swedish girls were sent home from school by their headmaster for the crime of showing up wearing sweaters that showed some tiny Swedish flags. (Flag = Nationalism = Racism = Nazism, according to Leftist, Multicultural logic)."

Great country, the Netherlands. One of the most, if not the very most, enlightened proponents of human rights on the planet. The rest of us can learn a lot from their system. Is it the constitutional monarchy with a parliament
that gets the credit? Possibly so, but I do not have enough experience to judge.

That is not to say the Dutch weren't as bad as the rest of us back in the days of colonialism (say 1600-1800). They just got wiser and learned from their mistakes.

Not so sure about that. Humans will be humans, regardless of the country.

Desi, I am currently studying American Politics in college and am becoming enlightened as to the difference between American Democracy and other democracies...wondering what it is about American Democracy that you don't like. I'm just very interested to know.

I so much agree with that comment about humans. In my American Literature class today I felt the need to remind my righteous-feeling professor that we are all capable of stooping into the pits of slaverowning had we been in that time period.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Hugh on Netherlands and human rights. In America "the right to not be offended" does not exist, but the right to free speech (especially patriotic free speech) does. Does your country promote religious tolerance? Or any sort of tolerance? I think immigrants have a lot of nerve to call citizens of their new country "facist". If they don't like what the flag stands for why would you immigrate to that country?

>>>Even people who have an bumpersticker whit the flag on their car are harassed and called a facist by the Muslims. Most schools also ban certain clothing like the Lonsdale brand and combat boots with white or red laces. This is also concidered a sign of racism. There are of course no restrictions for the immigrants on clothing.

I think the immigrants get the idea these people are racist, because often they are. If I see a bunch of people walking around with a flag on their coats, I think they are racist too. But keep in mind these are incidents. The problem is, we promote religious tolerance and tolerance in general so much, that we blow every incident out of proportion. And now the discussion is really at the forefront, ever since the murder of Theo van Gogh (a Dutch filmmaker/tv personality) by an extremist muslim.

The thing about american democracy I don't like is that for me it doesn't actually feel like a democracy at all, but more an olicharchy. You have only two parties that have a reasonable chance to get in to power, and those in power are all powerfull/rich people and I must say, for me the difference between these two parties is not always evident.

In the Netherlands, I could establish a new party tomorrow, if I'm unsatisfied with any of the legions of others, and have a reasonable chance to be in government in four years time. If my ideas are good enough, and people vote for me. This has actually happened a couple of times.

Also, I don't like the way american elections work. To me it feels (again, note the subjective way I put it!) that the one who throws most money around wins. For me, that is very strange.

Keep in mind that I know the dutch system would never work for a large country. But that is the thing, what government a country can accept is so cultural, one might work for one and never for another. For this reason, it is very strange to me that people can think "their democracy" is the best for the whole world. Their democracy works for their country, because the country grew into it, and it had time to adjust things according to its culture.

Just to further move the topic afar, the USA is a Republic, not a Democracy.

[en.wikipedia.org]

One of the things that means is that the people can vote for their President, but they cannot actually choose that person by popular acclaim. The Electoral College picks him (not her as yet), and is under no particular obligation to follow the popular vote.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Why is that? Because the Founding Fathers did not trust the judgment of the hoi polloi, of course.

In the US, displaying the flag is, as Talia said, a First Amendment issue. Even in places where other displays are banned, you can still display a US flag.

We may be the only country that does a 'pledge of allegiance'- I haven't heard of that elsewhere.

pam

Getting back to the poem, I don't see this as a knock at colonialism, but the opposite- knocking the people who stay home and don't how England is protecting them.

A similar attitude currently in the US is the one that says that in order to 'support our troops,' we must make no criticism of the situation in Iraq.

pam

Perhaps Linda can tell us, from that Carrington biography, what was the incident quoted from the 'Daily Papers' that Kipling cited to preface his poem, and where did it occur.

Kipling wrote the following about the poem's composition in his autobiography 'Something of Myself':


…my Father with his sage Yorkshire outlook and wisdom; my Mother, all Celt and three-parts fire--both so entirely comprehending that except in trivial matters we had hardly need of words. I think I can with truth say that those two made for me the only public for whom then I had any regard whatever till their deaths, in my forty-fifth year.

…I had been at work on the rough of a set of verses called later 'The English Flag' and had boggled at a line which had to be a key-line but persisted in going 'soft.' As was the custom between us, I asked into the air 'What am I trying to get at?' Instantly the Mother, with her quick flutter of the hands 'You're trying to say; "What do they know of England who only England know,"' The Father confirmed. The rest of the rhetoric came away easily; for it was only pictures seen, as it were, from the deck of a long fourteen-footer, a craft that will almost sail herself.

In the talks that followed, I exposed my notion of trying to tell to the English something of the world outside England--not directly but by implication.

They understood. Long before the end the Mother, summarising, said; 'I see. "Unto them did he discover His swan's nest among the reeds." Thank you for telling us, dear.' That settled that; and when Lord Tennyson (whom alas! I never had the good fortune to meet) expressed his approval of the verses when they appeared, I took it for a lucky sign.

Most men properly broke to a trade pick up some sort of workshop facility which gives them an advantage over their untrained fellows. My office-work had taught me to think out a notion in detail, pack it away in my head, and work on it by snatches in any surroundings. The lurch and surge of the old horse-drawn buses made a luxurious cradle for such ruminations. Bit by bit, my original notion grew into a vast, vague conspectus--Army and Navy Stores List if you like--of the whole sweep and meaning of things and effort and origins throughout the Empire. I visualised it, as I do most ideas, in the shape of a semi-circle of buildings and temples projecting into a sea-of dreams.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2005 09:29PM by IanB.

Unfortunately, Carrington doesn't have anything to say about the "incident", in fact he doesn't even mention the preface to the poem. It only comes in as a break in his work on his novels, he had just published "The Light that Failed" and was starting work on "The Naulahka" whick kept him in contact with the Balestier family.

Desi....as far as the money-thing being the ticket to win an election in this country you are very very much right about that, and like Hugh said, it was sort of set up to be that way. The founding fathers wanted an elite group of people to naturally form that would continue to govern, however, the Senators and Representatives that make up the congress are still voted on by the people (at least those of us who vote). As for the electoral college, my opinion is that I would rather have the elctoral college voting than the very, very small percentage of people who actually vote. And most of the time, the popular vote coincides with the election results.

You don't see a difference between Democrats and Republicans? They have never been more different. The gap between the two parties continues to grow wider and wider as the times change.