see,hear,speak - I know what I'm talking about!!

On your comments again Max - I think he still does support the Revolutionary principle - just not their methods , so in a way he probably does feel ashamed.

Your Tutor is there to support you - is a 'phone conversation out of the question?

Hi all, Some good stuff here.

Max don’t be discouraged! I got a disappointing mark for TMA 1 - and I wasn't happy with my TMA 2 score either. Lowest marks I've had so far with the OU. Once I get discouraged I start to lose my confidence and think I'm rubbish and that is really self perpetuating.
I found by reading WW piece aloud imagining I was talking to my friend helped me come to some understanding of what WW is trying to say. The poem is a dialogue or rather half of a dialogue - Wordsworth is addressing himself to Coleridge - who for a time was a close friend. Also found thoroughly studying Chapter Five of Romantic Writings, 'Reading The Prelude' - Bygraves - very helpful to my understanding. Do Read all the sections of the Prelude that Bygraves asks us to read.

I agree with Sue that the section from the end of line 49 – through to ‘upbraids their silence 53 is talking about Wordsworth’s inability to understand the ‘language’ of the city. After I read the sections Bygraves suggests – especially the London piece – it occurred to me that Wordsworth was not happy in great cities. He found them false – their symbols not to be trusted. But this piece is more than this isn’t it. I think Wordsworth is telling his friend that he could not understand the language of the revolution the violence – the imprisonment of a family – the fear in the city - despite his sympathy for the political ideals behind revolution.

Like you I find metre very difficult and detest going through a poem line by line trying to get the stressed syllables right. Have you carefully read ‘Approaching Poetry’? It explains how Iambic pentameter is the basic rhythm of the English language and describes with examples types of feet (stressed/unstressed syllables) also length of lines eg a Pentameter = 5 feet – an Iambic pentameter therefore is a line with five iambic feet x/. If you repeat the poem out loud several times and really listen – maybe record yourself, you’ll find you naturally stress certain syllables and ‘glide’ over others.

I think most of the passage from the Prelude is in Iambic pentameter- but I haven't checked. Still trying to get to grips with MA's rhythm!

Gill
sorry to go on but I’ve been away working and am trying to write this essay and get ready for a horticulture show this Sunday!

Must dash

Gill

Hi Again,

Am struggling with metre in MA Instructions. The poem does not seem to be regular Iambic Pentameter at all. The word liberty seems to upset the rhythm! When I say liberty - I stress the first syllable lib and then glide over the next bit er and then stress ty slightly. Any thoughts.


Also what do you make of the extra 'or' in line 2

' Freedom, I mean, without or Church or King' ?????
/ x | x / | x / | x / | x /|

I scan this as a Trochaic foot followed by 4 Iambic Feet. So is the 'or' there to set the metre straight and if so it seems very clumsy!

Gill

Hi Guys
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Much appreciated. I have emailed my tutor and she has at last replied and I feel we are on a more even keel now. Twice now however, I have had my mark reduced by OU because the tutor is not using correct marking scheme. Thoroughly cheesed off to be honest. I want to get this assignment out of the way so I can just forget it.

I suppose Im panicking abit because I don't understand why alot of the language has been used or what effect it creates and if I can't get it right for an assignment, what will I be like in the exam?

Sorry Ginnyfly I wish I could help you-but I haven't got a clue!!

Oh well, I'd better get to it.
Bye Max

>Am struggling with metre in MA Instructions

Me too - in speech, I think the stresses are;

Of Liberty, Reforms and Rights I sing,
x / x x x / x / x /
Freedom, I mean, without or Church or King;
/ x x x x / x / x /

Approaching Poetry tells us 'Rhythm MUST have meaning'(P.9) and I'm sure it does!!!
(just haven't found it yet!!)
No, seriously, apart from lines 2 & 3 which, I agree, start with a trochaic foot, most can be said in iambic pentameter - it just doesn't sound natural.

I also have an anapestic foot with rebellion's here:
And boldly dare to take rebellion's cause:
x / x / x / x / xx /
And I've no idea what to call this:
Let all be equal, every man my brother;
x / x / x xx x / x / x

Can we get too hung up on this?
<Also what do you make of the extra 'or' in line 2

If it's there for the metre, I think she could have done a lot better!
Without can mean outside, but whether this can be taken as outside the rules or suchlike, I don't know. Still doesn't seem to fit.

Sue

I put the stresses in the right place when I posted- Can't believe I'm doing it again
Of Liberty, Reforms and Rights I sing,
x / xx x / x / x /
Freedom, I mean, without or Church or King;
/ x x x x / x / x /
And boldly dare to take rebellion's cause:
x / x / x / x / xx /
Let all be equal, every man my brother
x / x / x x xx / x / x

Sigh....no can do

Try it with caps and small letters, instead of the stress marks:


Of LIBerTY, ReFORMS and RIGHTS i SING,

FREEdom, i MEAN, withOUT or (either) CHURCH or KING;

And BOLDly DARE to TAKE reBELLion's CAUSE:

Let ALL be EQual, EV'ry MAN my BROther


It is straight IP that way, with a substitution in the freedom line. Yeah, LIBerTEE is not pronounced that way, but ...

Hugh
Thanks that makes it soo much clearer

Im struggling with this and getting more fed up with it. I have no idea of the effects of anything in the poems except the misery they are causing me
Max

Thanks Hugh,
or (either) used to keep stresses I assume.
Is it OK to drop syllables then, to keep in with IP? - EV'ry?
Sue

>or (either) used to keep stresses I assume

Yup.

>Is it OK to drop syllables then, to keep in with IP? - EV'ry?

Sure, if that is an accepted pronunciation. I say ev'ry all the time. Fam'ly too.

I think readers can usually be trusted to supply the correct pronunciation, and both every and family could be spelled out without a problem. Putting in the apostrophes would be worse, since the reader would likely stumble in those cases, detracting from the flow.

Brilliant. Thanks for your help, Hugh.

Hi guys,
I'd just chill with the whole metre situation, it's in heroic couplets, that's all you need to know! Unless you're musically minded how can you possibly tell what is and isn't stressed?!?! All depends how you say a word
Regards
Ophelia

Ophelia
I agree, that's what I find so difficult. Surely it depends on how one says the word?

Ive given up worrying now and Im on to the language etc!! Still 'stressing' but not in the same way!!

Bye 4 now
Max

Hugh - Thanks for your suggestion about using caps instead of stress marks - its so much easier to see immediately the pattern - And thanks for suggesting a meaning for the extra OR.

Sue Here's how I read the line

Let ALL be EQUal, EVEery MAN my BROther;

It appears to be iambic pentameter with an extra syllable.

Just got my TMA 3 back and disappointed - still nows not the time for a mental crisis. Going to have a coffee and play my strategy game for half an hour before I go back to the poem. Hope to finish MA by lunchtime and start on Wordy this afternoon. Good luck everyone - thanks for being there

Gill

Yours was later back than mine! My marks aren't what I want yet either. I've got the ideas but they can get lost in translation, and I need to find my 'voice' - keep the ideas complex and the expression simple, is what I've been told. Good solid advice but difficult to achieve.

Time for some more practice then!!
Good luck people,
Sue x

>It appears to be iambic pentameter with an extra syllable.

Correct. I assume you mean the extra trailing syllable at the end of the line.

>Let ALL be EQUal, EVEery MAN my BROther

The author intended the every to be pronounced as ev'ry, I believe. Still, there is nothing wrong with the substitution if you want to pronounce it as every.

But how to read it, if so? Is there a caesura, with the first two feet iambic (plus a trailing syllable)? Then a dactyl and two trochees? That still maintains the five feet, but usually there would be a caesura in all the other lines if that is how the author intended the reading. To me, it's simpler (Occam's razor) to merely hear the ev'ry.

Trailing syllables are always 'allowed' in any meter. Compare catalectic and acatalectic endings for some similar ideas.

Hello Everyone

The effect is the part I'm struggling with, and surely it's the most important aspect:for e.g., I know that WW's poem is like prose, but what's the effect? I also wonder about the discussion of gender and other wider issues - I made just 2 brief references to Romanticism generally in TMA03 and was told, 'stick to this poem'.
Also, is there a reason why students don't report the actual mark they got in TMAs? The comments from TMA03 I had were disillusioning: the poem was an ode, not a mock epic/heroic as I said; heroic couplets aren't necessarily satirical, it was all IP with no variations as I'd thought and was straightforwardly praising the horse and his rider, which I didn't see. For all that I got a good mark which doesn't help actually.

Sophie

Just joined this site and it's brill!! My thought is that it isn't a french revolutionary that is the voice of the poem. Instead I think it is a satirical prospective of the propaganda of pro revolutionaries in England at the time. The title of the poem states 'SUPPOSED to be Written in Paris'. I think that Alcock is poking fun at the sentiments of revolutionaries in England.

What do you think? Have I been smoking too much crack!!! (joke)

>The comments from TMA03 I had were disillusioning: the poem was an ode,
>not a mock epic/heroic

Did the Tutor say what makes it an ode?

[tinyurl.com]

<[www.poeticbyway.com]>

Hugh

Yes, because it addresses the horse as 'you'.

Sophie

Sophie the reason no one gives their actual marks for TMA 03 is 'cause we're all too ashamed I guess!!!

hi,

i'm in the same boat, except as well as having A210 to deal with i'm also studying u210 and so i have 2 assignments each month to try to sort through...badly i have to say, i've yet to hand an assignment in on the right time!

the trouble i'm having with this assignment is more to do with discussing the effects of the techniques used and why certain words are used over others. and although my last mark was okish, considering my total lack of understanding of the poem, my tutor remarked that my weakness was that i was describing the poem rather than analyzing the poem. i can see what the poet is trying to do, but i cant explain it! i'm half way through writing it up, it needs still a lot of fixing up. any help in how i can improve my analysis rather than describing would be much appreciated!

just a quick questin i was taking a look at tma 05 and we have to pick a book from lit and gender i asume that this is from the set texts what does everybody else think!!!!!!!!!!

finished tma 04 not looking forward to getting my result but thanx for all your help and i hope you all do great xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Bump

it says prose text - so I think it means the short stories from p.296 onwards in Goodman's Literature and Gender.

That also means we won't be back here for TMA5, here being a poetry forum.

Back to TMA4 for me!

Sue

Don't even want to think about TMA5 yet but lit and gender has got to be easier than the previous 4 assignments!!! At least most people have read The Color Purple in the real world like before the time of OU!! Where are we all gonna meet for that one guys?! Also another question can you get away with handing TMAs in late?!?!? I usually have to stay up all night if I need to finish it on time!

>>Did the Tutor say what makes it an ode?

>Yes, because it addresses the horse as 'you'.

How odd. Is the following an ode, then?


Nydia, Oh Nydia, though you
Are our standard, we've slandered you too.
Thus I hereby assure
You're substantially pure,
And you've nary a single tattoo.
-- Walt Fellman


Sheesh! Can't get good tutors nowadays.

Sophie,

Re'I know that WW's poem is like prose, but what's the effect?'

I would think that the effect of this is to make the poem conversational. It is written in Iambic Pentameter which is used in everyday speech, and it is supposedly written to WW's friend, Coleridge. These two facts would lead me towards that conclusion~ that it is an insight into WW's real opinion and that it is something he would usually only say to a close friend. Kind of like reading someone's personal letters (maybe??)

What does anyone else think?

Lois

Oh, and that is a good point about TMA05. This forum is a real godsend to those of us unable to get to tutorials, so where will we meet for the next TMA?

Any ideas PLEASE, PLEASE speak up!!!

I will have a quick search for some kind of chatroom now (anything rather than finish this damned assignment!!)

Lois xx

Hi,

I have started a discussion about TMA05 on another site if anyone is interested. I haven't actually got anything to say regarding this yet as I am still slogging away at TMA04 but, for any interested parties, the link is as below,

[pub38.bravenet.com]

I'm afraid I don't know how to add a link so you will have to copy and paste the link to your address bar.

Hope it works!!

Regards,

Lois (again!!)

Hi All and Lois

An alternative forum is already in hand - Lois you pre-empted me!!! Please check your mail boxes over the course of the next few days - i.e after I've finished my TMA!!! Thanks Lois for the link though.

Sue x

Sue and all,

An alternative to the forum I have given above would be much appreciated as I think there are problems with viewing that one in the flat view as we are able to here. I find this view much easier to use as it has all the ideas and threads of the conversation in one place. So, Sue, please do let us all know when you have found a more effective 'home' for us all!!

Back to this TMA, I think the way I am going to go with this is to comment on the imagery in WW and compare how there is very little of this in MA. Also, how WW deals in facts, places and people and MA is largely rhetorical (for want of a better word) in that she deals with ideas rather than reality.

which path are you all wandering down? I have decided to choose a particular specific as there are just not enough words to focus on everything effectively.

Anybody else have any ideas?

yes - WW is up close and personal. He has belief in something that is at risk of being overshadowed by extremists. He's finding it difficult to understand the situation. V. serious viewpoint.
I think MA finds it difficult to understand the situation too (from the French point of view) Her methods are satire - plus a lot of contradiction. The middle bit reads almost like a constitution doesn't it - a set of principles. The right to do this, the liberty to do that. The very nature of a rogue though who is following these principles is to be unprincipled and dishonest! But never mind, it's just a silly fad - Its exaggeration to the point of being farcical. Clever or just plain blase?
And is there any imagery in MA? Mind you I did wonder whether the 'mighty judges of the land' is a religious reference. ?

Sue

Sue,

I'm glad someone else is stil working on this. I say that but i haven't usually started at this point of the month, but it is my son's 3rd birthday on tuesday and I would like to be able to relax a little and know that I don't need to be up until 4am again!

I have found that as I reread the WW extract, i like it more and more. I've kind of shocked myself a bit. I agree totally with Gill when she says that he would have made a fantastic painter, the language really adds to the tone and the images are totally believable.

I was over the moon with my mark for TMA03 and TMA02 but, as my tutor says, this only leads to greater expectations and makes me more nervous ev'ry (sory, I couldn't help myself! time I submit a TMA! I'm really not convinced that this one will stand up there with the others as there are so many points to make and so little space (and time) to do it!

Sue, as you are still with us, any other ideas you would like to look at as i am coming to the end of my WW section and am about ready to move onto MA?

Lois x

Lois Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sue,
>
> I'm glad someone else is stil working on this. I
> say that but i haven't usually started at this
> point of the month, but it is my son's 3rd
> birthday on tuesday and I would like to be able to
> relax a little and know that I don't need to be up
> until 4am again!
>
> I have found that as I reread the WW extract, i
> like it more and more. I've kind of shocked myself
> a bit. I agree totally with Gill when she says
> that he would have made a fantastic painter, the
> language really adds to the tone and the images
> are totally believable.
>
> I was over the moon with my mark for TMA03 and
> TMA02 but, as my tutor says, this only leads to
> greater expectations and makes me more nervous
> ev'ry (sorry, I couldn't help myself!) time I submit
> a TMA! I'm really not convinced that this one will
> stand up there with the others as there are so
> many points to make and so little space (and time)
> to do it!
>
> Sue, as you are still with us, any other ideas you
> would like to look at as i am coming to the end of
> my WW section and am about ready to move onto MA?
>
> Lois x



See above for corrected version...I really should read back my comments before posting them!!

Nah - I've given up for the night! Don't work too late!

Sue

Hi everyone,

I've come in really late and am new here - sorry for missing out on so much. This site has been a great help and sharing ideas and helping cement many of my previous ideas and notions and see others were thinking along the same lines.

I'm sorry I haven't had anything to contribute but as I would like to take part in future discussions and join in helping each other. I have panic attacks and social phobia so often don't get to many tutorials so this is a great way of talking to and sharing ideas with other students.

I hope I'll be included in wherever you hold discussions for TMA 05. Good luck everyone,

Luke

hi Luke,

i'm sure everyone else will agree with me when I say 'the more the merrier'!!

Look out for the link for TMA05, but if it doesn't appear here, I will try to remember to email you with details.

Anyhow, how are you getting on with TMA04, all finished yet? I'm just about at the 1200 mark now which is pretty good for me nearly 4 days before d-day.

Any ideas are appreciated so feel free to add them.

take care
lois xx

Cathy - really enjoyed your views comparing and contrasting these 2 pieces. Your views are exactly the same as mine - ironically I found MA (the woman) to have a masculine view on the subject - more blunt, matter-of-fact worldly-wise view on revolution and it's negative outcome whereas WW was more feminine and wishy-washy in his approach and his thoughts were almost apathetic - he needs a kick up the bum almost dontyathink!!
Am I yet again the last person to be finishing the essay with my bout of last-minute-itis!! Work better under pressure!! Good Luck!!

Sue

Ophelia, if you let your tutor know beforehand that a tma is going to be late then they can give you an extention.

i'm sort of half way through, my tutor suggested the best way to deal with the poem is to compare and contrast as i go through the assignment which i've found a lot easier. i'm trying to work to complete it by tomorrow so that i can concentrate on my other course assignment also due in this week:S

i hope that you'll include me in wherever the next meeting point is for tma05, the notes, the connection with other OU students has bought me a lot of relief, at least i'm not alone anymore!

thank you all for your help.

Ref: Chatting for TMA 05.

Think the website mentioned before, pub.38.bravenet.com is a great idea - see you there. Are there any more chat sites as they are so helpful!!
Have a great day y'all.

Hi guys,

A fellow A210-er here. I contributed to the last discussion on Joanna Baillie's poem, but haven't had much of an opportunity to take part in this discussion (my head's in a spin, poetry really isn't my thing!)

I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know where the next TMA discussion is taking place - I need all the help I can get and this forum has been so much more helpful than the OU Conference.

Oh well, back to the books - has any one else tried to figure out metre when it's read in a Scottish accent? (Sob!)

Gavin.

Hi Gavin,

Och Aye tha noo I cannae understand
I think you mean you want a helping hand
My husband's Scottish too, talks Jock slang heaps,
Like Haggis, tatties, swally, teuchter, neeps.

There you go - a poor Enlish lassy's attempt at funny iambic pentameter - sorry, can you use 'funny' and 'iambic pentameter' in the same sentence??

Ref the next TMA - someone mentioned using pub.38.bravenet.com as a literature chatroom - hope it works...and that's bravenet, not braveheart!!
Enjoy,


Your aye

Sue overseas

Well here we all are again! Thank God.....
I finally looked at the poems and at least they are better than the 'Horse'. Lots of stuff to get our teeth into. I think that the speaker in Alcock is the selfish 'I' who sacrificed social responsibility on the altar of personal freedom while WW seems to be facing the horrors of these freedoms!

Hi Folks

Any specific significance to the rhetorical questions, lines 18/19 in the MA poem? I feel there must be something other than to emphasise their ludicrousness?

Sue:
I agree with you, Instructions does not appear to contain any imagery and WW writes with much introspection.

MA dosent really feel like Romantic Poetry in the same way as WW either.

Whatdoyareckon

The rhetorical questionning is almost inciteful, isn't it. Daring someone to rebuke them. I find that part quite childish - I'm gonna do what I want and you can't stop me - sort of thing.


On a seperate note - other than the mail address here, if people haven't listed, some have blocked me (!), some I can't mail for goodness knows what reason. If you've listed and haven't heard ref. the next TMA please feel free to contact me.

I really need to get on with this essay now!

Sue

Hi guys,
Im a fellow a21Oer, i cant get to tutorials so ive found this all a great way of getting ideas-despite not atually giving any input yet!- though in my defence i only found this as im finishing TMA04, ive still not sent it yet not 100% happy with it, poetry is not my 'thing' so ive found it really really difficult. If the forum for TMA05 is going to be anywhere else will someone let me know?????????

TORI X

I have only just started this TMA - I am doing two courses and just got the other one in yesterday. I am safe in the knowledge that I have oooh, 2 days left...I was very thankful for all the help on TMA-03 but the post lost my assignment so I have yet to call the tutor for my mark - which I keep putting off as I have been disappointed with my average marks so far. 65 by the way since no one else likes to give their marks. I would be happy with a 73 so I am working hard on this one.
Cheers to everyone - see you at TMA-05

SHOO! AT LEAST THERE IS ANOTHER OUT THERE WHO IS TRYING BY THE SKIN OF THEIR TEETH TO COMPLETE THIS ONE. HAVE TRIED GOOGLING ALCOCK AND GOT NOWHERE. LOADS OF STUFF ON PRELUDES SO OK ON THAT ONE BUT ALCOCK IS LIKE BAILLIE - OBSCURE! DO THEY CHOOSE THESE POEMS TO PUNISH US, YOU THINK?
ANYWAY, BYGRAVE HAS SOME GOOD POINTS ON PRELUDES TO USE BUT NOT AN IOTA ON ALCOCK... OH WELL

I'm stuck at 1350 words. How am I ever going to do 3 essays in 3 hours in the exam???

Hi there all,

I can now put my feet up for a couple days after completing TMA 04.I have found this discussion very interesting and helpful. After putting some input into the TMA 03 discussion i feel a little cheeky that i have not contributed this time, but you have all been extremely helpful. Sue, could you please forward a link to me regarding the next discussion on TMA 05, i would be most greatful.

Thanks again.

Hi all,

What a fantastic forum and all soo friendly and clever.

I hope I can be included in the next TMA05 discussion.

Hope you all do well in your TMA04.

Thank you.

I think an average of 65 is good, for TMA02 i got a poor 50% which was the worst mark i have had, i was ready to quit as soon as i got it back from my tutor but my boyfriend told me to stick it out because id come this far and just to be more positive and not worry too much about the marks. The thing is we all have busy lifes, i dont ever put 100% into my TMAs because i have so little spare time to put the work in so dont expect high marks anymore i just do my best and hope to scrape through!!!!

Tori

Snap! I got the same mark for TMA 2, apparently I did not put in enough quotes. I did considerably better on TMa3 which really surprised me because after doing A103, I didnt feel that poetry was my forte.

What really demoralised me in A103 was that my tutor at the time said that a decent mark was 75 plus and I got that roughly twice during that module!!!!!!

The reality of my life is that my other half studies and we both work, in addition to this we have two small children. I doubt I devote the amount of time in total needed to match the criteria suggested, but I give it the best that I can.

I think thats why this site has been so helpful as it is a fusion of ideas and there is no need to feel intimidated (as I often did in tutorials) because no-one knows your identity.

Look forward to catching up with you all on the new site for TMA 5.

So where is this new site?

Thank you everyone, for sharing your thoughts, where can I reach you for your views on The Color Purple.

Can we work it on this site?

If it's not poetry, prolly not. Still ...

Nothing says the color purple
Quite as nicely as a burp 'll.

Accepting orders and teaching different types of Chocolates, Cakes, Waterfall, Farm House, Candles (Basic & Carving), La’masa, Murals, Paper Punching, Paper Quilling, Tea Bag Folding, Spice and pulses Frame, Flowers (Fancy Fabric, Beads, Sequence), M-Seal (Molding, craft, Sculpture, Egyptian Statue), Ribbon Embroidery, International Gift Wrapping, Imitation Jewelry making, Paintings (Warli, Madhubani, Decoupage, Black Mirror, Egyptian, Fabric, Pot, Lepan work, Stain Glass, Nib and Sand), Decorative Shoe best from waste, Washable Table Mats, Rubber Moulds, Fiber Statues, Pot Designing, Screen and Block Printing, Aluminum and Jute Net basket and more. You name a course we will teach you.

"Thank you everyone, for sharing your thoughts, where can I reach you for your views on The Color Purple.

Can we work it on this site?"

If you promise to put all your comments in rhyme ;-)

Honestly, I don't see why not. You can make a new thread like: off subject- the color purple.