Please help. Compare and contrast Mary Alcock's INSTRUCTIONS & lines 38-82 of Wordsworth's THE PRELUDE.

Thanks,

Jeanne

Need more information. I have not read all of Wordsworth's Prelude, but I believe there were lots of 'books' in it. Perhaps?:

[www.bartleby.com]

Or something else entirely?

Is this (an excerpt from) the other one?:


"Instructions, Supposed to be Written in Paris,
for the Mob in England"

Of liberty, reform, and rights I sing--
Freedom I mean, without or church or king;
Freedom to seize and keep whate'er I can,
And boldly claim my right -- The Rights of Man!
Such is the blessed liberty in vogue,
The envied liberty to be a rogue,
The right to pay no taxes, tithes, or dues,
The liberty to do whate'er I choose;
The right to take by violence and strife
My neighbour's goods, and (if I please) his life;
The liberty to raise a mob or riot
(For spoil and plunder ne'er were got by quiet);
The right to level and reform the great;
The liberty to overturn the state;
The right to break through all the nation's laws
And boldly dare to take rebellion's cause:
Let all be equal, every man my brother--
Why have one property and not another?
Why suffer titles to give awe and fear?
There shall not long remain one British peer --
Nor shall the criminal appalled stand
Before the mighty judges of the land;
Nor judge nor jury shall there longer be,
Nor any jail, but ev'ry pris'ner free;
All law abolished, and with sword in hand
We'll seize the property of all the land.
Then hail to liberty, reform and riot! --
Adieu contentment, safety, peace and quiet!

Hugh, The extract begins at line 38: - Book 10

This was the time in which enflam'd with hope,
To paris I return'd. Again I rang'd,
Through the wide City and in progress pass'd
The Prison where the unhappy Monarch lay
Associate with his Children and his Wife
In bondage; and the Palace lately storm'd
With roar of canon, and a numerous Host.
I cross'd, (a blank and empty area then)
The Square of the Carousel, few weeks back
Heap'd up with dead and dying, upon these
And other sights looking as doth a man
Upon a volume whose contents he knows
Are memorable, but from him lock'd up,
Being written in a tongue he cannot read;
So that he questions the mute leaves with pain
And half upbraids their silence. But that night
when on my bed I lay I was most mov'd
And felt most deeply in what world I was;
My room was high and lonely, near the roof
Of a large mansion or Hotel, a spot
That would have pleas'd me in more quiet times
Nor was it wholly without pleasure then.
With unextinguish'd taper I kept watch,
Reading at intervals; the fear gone by
Press'd on me almost like a fear to come;
I thought of those September Massacres,
Divided from me by a little month,
And felt and touch'd them, a substantial dread;
The rest was conjured up from tragic fictions
And mournful Calendars of true history,
Remembrances and dim admonishments.
"The horse is taught his manage and the wind
"Of heaven wheels round and treads in his own steps,
"Year follows year, the tide returns again,
"Day follows day, all things have second birth;
"The earthquake is not satisfied at once."
And in such way I wrought upon myself
Until I seem'd to hear a voice that cried
To the whole city, "sleep no more." To this
Add comments of a calmer mind, from which
I could not gather full security,
But at the best it seemed a place of fear,
Unfit for the repose of night,
Defenceless as a wood where tigers roam. (line 82)

Thanks for your help Hugh,

Jeanne

My quick hit is that Alcock felt that the revolution would bring nothing but trouble, whereas Wordsworth saw the problems that revolution brought but still had hope.

pam

I love Mary Alcock's version of 'Instructions.........' It is infused with irony & satire.

Wordsworth is so serious about the subject matter- there is a clear sense of introversion in 'The Prelude' (Book tenth) and depression/ anxiety in his tone.

I have not had a proper chance to analyse both, but dare say there is a serious/didactic reading v. satirical/allegorical reading.

Watch this space (or the space in the smart room!)

Cheers
Liz

>Compare and contrast ...

Alcock's is fun to read. Wordsworth's puts me to sleep. Yeah, I know it's blank verse, but I bet even WW couldn't read those interminable sentences without letting out a yawn or two.

Alcock's poem is in heroic couplets - Wordsworth's lines run on - like a prose poem? I agree - I think Alcock - like many women - wanted a quiet - not a riot. Thanks Jeannie for starting this discussion
ginnyfly

Thanks to everyone for getting me started.

I'm really grateful for your input.

Take care,

Jeanne.

I have also read 'Instructions...' as a comment on the rights of women. See line 4, 'The Rights of Man' -- not woman as I think she is making the point that women have no rights or freedom to 'seiz and keep whate'er I can'. Remember, many women did not have the right to their own property.

If you read through from this perspective, the reading is interesting. I actually like this one, something I couldn't quite say about Joanna Baillie's, Horse poem. I can't bring myself to type the title even one more time!!

I will be back with more comments later after I have gathered up the strength to tackle WW's prelude. I couldn't quite muster up the energy to read Shelley's Defence of Poetry to the end as it just wouldn't sink in and I kept dropping off, but just about got through WW's preface... so hopefully I should be able to stagger to the finish line with this one!!

Have a good one,

Lois

Hi All,

Lois you make me laugh! I know exactly what you mean! - I never want to read JB's "Horse" again!!!!

The rights of women - yes! Perhaps their right to live - nurture - create - in PEACE. But it is more than that isn't it. It's about the conflict between rights and civil legislation. Am going to read it again tonight and try and sort out the structure.

Already got some thoughts about the Wordsworth excerpt. Normally I avoid associating the speaker with the poet, however as I read that The Prelude is an autobiographical work – I am assuming that the speaker and the poet are one and the same.

Comments anyone?
ginnyfly

I just had a thought about something way back last year on A103, I will have to pop upstairs to check my details but it was something along the lines of freedom not existing in a state of anarchy. That to truly be free, man needs to have rules and boundaries AND LAWS which allow him to function effectively AND FREELY as a member of society.

Does that make any sense to anyone at all or am I going completely mad??!

I think this is where Alcock is going (I think!)

Any thoughts?

Hi, Just in case anyone needs details, this was Rousseau's justification for the change from the state of nature to the civil state as quoted below,

"This passage from the state of nature to the civil state produces quite a remarkable change in man, for it substitutes justice for instinct in his behaviour and gives his actions a moral qulaity they previously lacked."

(Rousseau: Cress (ed.), 1987, bk1, ch.8, p.150)


Also,

"Find a form of association which defends and protects with all common forces the person and goods of each associate, and by means of which each one, while uniting with all, nevertheless obeys only himself and remains as free as before..."

(bk1, ch.6, p.148)




I hope that makes some sense to at least one person out there as I do think it is a relevant perspective.

Let me know if you think I'm barking mad!

Lois xx

As to Mary Alcock's poem, I think Lois made a good point when mentioning anarchy and pointing to the fact that freedom for everybody is not possible unless some rules are respected. So, Alcock's message could be that revolution is not the solution to reform society, because it leads to chaos where the weak is exposed to violence (see line 10: My neighbour's .....life). Could evolution be the solution?

Who is the speaker? A revolutionary politician in Paris who is trying to win over the 'mob' (potential mob?) in England? Is the speaker hypocritical by first 'singing' (line 1) about Liberty, Reform and Rights, but 'meaning' (line 2) '... to seize and keep whate'er I can?' (line 3)? 'Every man my brother' (line 17), but towards the end: '...with sword in hand, /We'll seize the property of all the land?'

I'm looking forward to hearing some views on that.

As to Mary Alcock's poem, I think Lois made a good point when mentioning anarchy and pointing to the fact that freedom for everybody is not possible unless some rules are respected. So, Alcock's message could be that revolution is not the solution to reform society, because it leads to chaos where the weak is exposed to violence (see line 10: My neighbour's .....life). Could evolution be the solution?

Who is the speaker? A revolutionary politician in Paris who is trying to win over the 'mob' (potential mob?) in England? Is the speaker hypocritical by first 'singing' (line 1) about Liberty, Reform and Rights, but 'meaning' (line 2) '... to seize and keep whate'er I can?' (line 3)? 'Every man my brother' (line 17), but towards the end: '...with sword in hand, /We'll seize the property of all the land?'

I'm looking forward to hearing some views on that.

Thanks Lois for the quote - I think that is exactly what the poem is on about. Fritz I imagine the speaker as a wry female who is ironically quoting revolutionary literature.

Would be interested to hear people's opnions about the metre of the poem. The metre seems odd - but I get the feeling that this may be unintentional - I can't say I think much of Alcock as a poet.

ginnyfly

Am I the only one struggling with form and metre in the Prelude? It's very loose and, although I haven't looked in much depth at this yet, I'm not sure where to start with it.

Will be back with more comments when I am not at work!!

Lois

Gill, you are raising the question of form and metre in 'Instructions...'.

I would call the poem a political satire concerning the French Revolution. I think, MA ist mostly using heroic couplets (iambic pentameter lines rhyming in pairs). Sometimes there is an extra beat at the end of the line, like in lines 11/12. And there are more exceptions like in lines 2 + 3: 'Freedom' with stress on the first syllable, making it a trochee which is however not sustained. Overall, however, a rather regular metre, wouldn't you agree?

There is probably more to say about the form.

Fritz

>Sometimes there is an extra beat at the end of the line

See masculine & feminine endings (rhymes) at:

[www.poeticbyway.com]

[www.poeticbyway.com]

>The metre seems odd

Yes, heroic couplets. IP with some variations (substitutions) for, uh, variation. IP gets sing-songy after a while that is. One needs to vary the repetitive meter to avoid lulling the reader to sleep. And rhyming couplets get old very quickly, at least to my thinking.

For a more masterful example of blank verse than Wordsworth's, see Frost's Christmas Trees (sorry about the pop ups on this link):

[www.bartleby.com]

There Is No Freedom Without Rules

-The Golem Dorfl (Feet of Clay by Terry Pratchett)

pam

Good Morning,
Fritz - Hugh and Pam - thanks for your input. Thanks - Hugh for the link. I noticed the femine endings and wondered if MA was trying to undermine the 'heroic' ideas of the Revolution?

It seems to me that both poems are anti- revolutionary but I suspect the poets wrote the poems from totally different standpoints. MA seems to be a conservative - and pro-establishment - the poem articulates her fear of anarchy in a powerful way. Also I think that the poem reveals her female dislike of violence.

The excerpt from The Prelude seems disillusioned. We know that as a younger man - Wordsworth was a rebel and supported the ideals of revolution- In his poem I sense a terrible sadness - seeing as he does the dreadful results of an 'ideal'

'The Square of the Carousel, few weeks back
Heap'd up with dead and dying,'


I read the section from the Prelude again last night and it struck me what a 'painter' - Wordsworth would have been. I love the way he creates such simple but powerful images;


but I do find the blank verse hard to scan for metre! - It's partly I think the run on into the next line. Is this enjambment or is it just the result of the blank verse ? I think this is what Coleridge calls a 'conversation poem' (Bygraves RW- Page 116). As the iambic foot is said to form the natural rhythm of English speech - I am assuming that most of the Prelude is in this metre.

>Is this enjambment

Yes. Blank verse will tend to have more of it than rhymed lines. Free verse will have yet more. Again, it helps avoid monotony. See almost any play by Shakespeare, for example. One IP line is about one breath's worth.

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;

Thank you Hugh,
I find scanning a poem for metre the most difficult part about analysing poetry. I do find scanning Shakespeare a lot easier than scanning more modern poetry. I find free verse very difficult
Gill

Gill,

I have a hard time with meter myself. There's a link on one of the other pages on 'The Meter Family.' It might prove helpful. Here's the link. [www.emule.com] Hugh is our acknowledged expert on meter.

A thought came to mind when reading your comments above. I've heard it said that the first casualty of WWIII will be women's liberation. A society of anarchy is not going to be one of freedom for women.

pam

Thanks Pam and Hugh.

I find this forum so very useful, I can express ideas and get the kind of feedback - I dont get from the A210 forum. Am wading my way through The Prelude - Wordsworth does ramble! It really detracts from appreciating the powerful passages. Thanks for the link on metre

gill

Is everyone here, A210 students?????
If so, thank god, this is heaven.
I am disabled, so don't get to tutorials, and miss batting ideas around.
Struggling with MA and WW too. So would appreciate any suggestions that anyone may have
Gail

Trendie,

Most are A210 students. Some of us are regulars of this discussion board jumping in.

pam

well well well, its that time of the month to start lookining at the next essay, and what do i find? you're all busy at it! hello to all my fellow a210 sufferers, and hello to those free of this terrible disease.
looks like i have a lot of catching up to do!

jamiePam Adams wrote:

Helpful link on metre Pam, thanks.
William, Wordsworth, wearing, wading, wallowing, waffling, whittling, wearisome, wilting..........

Welcome Gail
I have difficulties getting to tutorials as well - mainly due to my work. I made the first one and it was useless compared to the exchange of ideas on this site.

Hi Everyone,

One thing that puzzles me is the first line of the excerpt from The Prelude

'This was the time in which enflamed with hope,'

Surely the news of the September massacres, which occured a month previously would have disillusioned Wordsworth?


Gill

Gill, I'm sure the first line was intended as a counter-foil for what is to follow. It is a means of showing the narrator's hopefulness compared to the tragedy he was to witness upon his return to Paris.

Les

Hi Guys,

I've just started TMA04, so finding this was a godsend! This is my first OU course and it's tougher than I thought.

I agree about the A210 messageboard being less than helpful. It appears to be more about pretentious people chatting each other up than generating useful ideas.

It does seem like Wordsworth is not keen n admitting that he might have been over-optimistic about the outcome of the Revolution. Instead of a bave new world, he feels vulnerable and scared in France now.

Alcock, on the other hand, knows that lawlessness will be the ultimate resul of revolution. She sees the ripple-effect and tries to warn England not to go down the same road.

Well, off to work then!

Charmaine

Gill

[Surely the news of the September massacres, which occured a month previously would have disillusioned Wordsworth?]

I agree -
Both massacres mentioned were instigated by Revolutionaries - Perhaps Wordswoth with his initial revolutionary ideals was prepared to accept these 'casualties of war', so to speak. Maybe he is 'enflamed' with hope because on his return to Paris he wishes to rekindle his passion for the Revolution? But on thinking in his own solitary confinement - ( 'my room was high and lonely' - akin to the Monarch perhaps?), he compares these events to events in history - shouldn't we heed warnings etc. Maybe he realises that the bloodshed to date is not half of what may come?

Initial thoughts on my part -

Sue

Post Edited (05-21-05 18:14)

Hello everyone!!!

Just started planning my TMA4 essay today.

I agree with a lot of people's comments. Both writers are writing about the same event but from different points of view. WW was a supporter of REvolutionary ideals and probably even thought the September massacres were just a casualty of war. However, when he actually goes to Paris the horror of it all strikes him and he becomes very depressed and disillusioned. I also felt there was some sympathy with Louis XVI. At the beginning he describes him as being 'unhappy' with his wife and children - presenting a very human image of the aristocracy the revolutionaries want to destroy. He speaks about his feelings and paints very striking and 'real' images of the French Rev. this extract differs from other WW poems which are highly crafted etc as the subject matter is very close to him.

I think Alcock's poem is great - full of satire!! She meantions 'liberty' 7 times and 'freedom' twice. She also mentins equality and brotherhood, echoing 'liberte, egalite and fraternite' - Fr Rev. It seems like a warning to Eng and a fear that revolution will alter society. She sees revoltion as mindless anarchy and not progress. I also think that she is indirectly talking about the rights of women. Supporters of revolutionary ideals wanted equality for all, but not women. Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others (George Orwell, Animal Farm).

Also interesting how she repeats the rhymes 'riot and quiet' on lines 11,12 and 27,28.

OK - just a few thoughts.

Cathy

Hi all - planning for TMA04 as well, found all the comments really useful. Thank you.

Just a few bits that I found intesesting so far with the Alcock poem, can't yet force myself to work on Wordsworth!

In addition to Cathy's point above, rights in line 1 changes to riot in line 27. Alcock playing with words???

Also from what was said above with the feminine rhymes, two of these create repitition but the other one lines 17-18, I think is the turn of the poem?

Right - back to it.

all of your ideas have been very helpful to me, but i keep getting sidetracked the tma question specifically asks one not to go into detail of the french recolution and both poets but i find it very hard.

Alcock could almost be describing Tony Blair's feral children in hoodies, or at least the popular perception of them.

Hi everyone,

In addition to Jayne's points, I think that right and riot is a play on words also. I also identified line 17/8 as the turn in the poem.

A comment on bump's comment - the tma question tells you not to go on about the french rev. I take that to mean that you should not write a history essay etc but both poets talk about the post 1792 sept massacre so a few brief comments on what happened and how both poets perceive it is fine I think.

Does everyone agree?

Anyway, I've written my intro but working all day so will do more this week.

See you

Cathy

Hello,

I'm just about to attempt to start TMA4, but still don't have the anthology book with the Alcock/Wordsworth extracts.... don't ask me how I managed to complete TMA03 - total nightmare. I note that Jeanne has very kindly put up the Wordsworth extract - can anyone help out with the Alcock one or point me in the direction of where, other than the Anthology, I can find it? If I can't even remember to order a book in time, how can I cope with Wordsworth? Help!

Hello Everyone,

I'm also doing A210 and am so glad to have found you as I don't have a tutorial until September (!!) and find the official OUSA conference to be not much help. I've never studied poetry before so TMA03 was a bit of a struggle; I wish I'd found you all in time for that one! It's certainly refreshing to find a group who aren't all bickering amongst each other and point-scoring. I've just started to jot down a few notes for TMA04 and hope to have something to contribute eventually!

Nicci

hoodies- hooded sweatshirts?

pam

An odd thought- why do revolutions succeed or fail? I'm American, and our revolution was successful (from our point of view- yours may differ!) It didn't, as the French Revolution did, fly off into a murderous anarchy that eventually led to Napoleon and dictatorship. Is the English Civil War a comparable revolution, or more analogous to our Civil War?

This is way beyond the scope of the poem discussion, but maybe it will tweak some ideas.

pam

I'm guessing you mean 'have a worthy outcome' for whether they succeed or fail. The Russian revolution succeeded in outing the previous regime(s), and many would argue the outcome was worthy. Still, the experiment cannot be said to have been totally desirable.

The solution has to rest on which leaders come to power during/after the revolution, I would think. And, do they have the military might on their side to enforce their beliefs, right.

Gill, you put the question:

>One thing that puzzles me is the first line of the excerpt from The Prelude

>'This was the time in which enflamed with hope,'

>Surely the news of the September massacres, which occured a month >previously would have disillusioned Wordsworth?

The Jacobin extremists, under Robespierre, had organised the massacres.
For a while it seemed that he backlash from moderate opinion might consolidate under the Girondins and stop the blood-letting.
I think this was giving Wordsworth his 'hope'.

It didn't work out!

John

Hi guys,

Just returning to MA and WW for a moment, wondered whether there is a point in comparing the use of the word 'quiet' in line 59 of the Prelude to the way it's used by Alcock.

Hi Sue& John,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts – I think you are right! It was easier for WW to idealise the revolution in London or by the Lakes. But when he experiences the reality in Paris – maybe sees blood stains – on the pavers – senses the fear and violence in the air – finally - alone in his room he is disillusioned. The ideals give way to fear for his own skin!

Gill

Mornin' all

I was also wondering -
'...the fear gone by
Press'd on me almost like a fear to come'

Do you think this could be a play on words, representing the 'terror' that started in 1794? Bloodshed has passed, bloodshed still to come? It's difficult to tell how retrospectively he wrote the chapters or parts thereof. Chapter 10 covers quite a period of history.

Hi Sue,
I read these lines - as Wordsworth sensing the fear and violence in the air the month after the massacres. Seeing it in the faces of the parisians - maybe seeing bloodstains in the square.
Don't fears in the past lose their emotional power - so WW is sensing both the real fear of the city of future violence and perhaps personal fear for his own safety?

Gill

Cathy says
>I also felt there was some sympathy with Louis XVI. At the beginning he >describes him as being 'unhappy' with his wife and children - presenting >a very human image of the aristocracy the revolutionaries want to
> destroy.

I hadn't thought much about this - but you are right. I think in many ways Wordsworth was a traditionalist - and felt sympathy for the imprisoned royal family - I cant imagine him subscribing to the deaths of the English royal family - mad and decadent as they were!

Gill

What would you mention in the introduction? How would you start it?

In the intro one could discuss gender as women did not have the freedom to write exactly how they felt or thought. Wordswroth did not have many constraints. i see Mary Alcocks poem as a painful cry expressing her frustration, as she would have to be very cautious in expressing her view points. i look at this poem 200 years later and feel sorry for female's at that time.

does anyone have any thoughts on the closing of Mary Alcock's poem?

LJ - your intro should signnpost whatever points you are going to make in the main body of your essay -
'In this essay I am going to discuss' or similar should suffice to begin with - if that suits you. It only needs to be brief because of the constraints of 1500 words!
Which points you take? The choice is really yours.

That's how I do, anyway. I'm sure we all do differently.
Sue

sue totally agree wif you, i think i am just getting so wrapped up in the whole female issue thing i have lost the plot a bit. lol
But now looking at the prelude i realise that there are very strong messages and images even more sothan in Alcock's poem.

Hi bump,
I am like you! - I got a bee in my bonnet about the feminist issues in Taming of The Shrew - But I got poor marks for my essay!!! Also I read the MA poem more as a critique of anarchy than an exposition of womens rights. For me the poem is about the dichotomy between freedom and personal rights. How we need law and order - rules and regulations in order to enjoy the 'liberty' of enjoying a quiet life and not a riot.

One thing I am determined to do for this assignment is to try to be more objective and spend more time planning it - Sue's advice on starting is a good one and I have kept a copy of her 'start' strategy.

One thing I am not sure about is how to divide the essay. I plan to spend roughly150 words for the intro - 450 words on the MA poem - 600- 650 on the Prelude and 150-200 on the conclusion. Not sure though if 650 is going to be enough for The Prelude. I know I read something in one of the OU books - must reread before starting to write tma04.

Gill

.

Bump wites

> does anyone have any thoughts on the closing of Mary Alcock's poem?
>
I read it once law and order are abolished it's goodbye to peace and quiet.
Gill

Hello, just want to be included in this thread, how did everyone do in TMA 3 by the way. I did a lot better than TMA02/1....

p/s. will contribute something constructive (eventually) when I actually get down to reading the said poem...thanks
Lou

Yes, I think that that's a good point to make.

pam

Gill
we discussed composition in our tutorial. With compare and contrast questions, the problem with discussing first one poem and then the other is one of repetition. By the time you have discussed the first and its effects, in relation to the second, you have minimal points to add when discussing the second. (Am I making sense?).
It may be easier to determine which points of comparisons you are going to focus on and then discuss in relation to both poems and then do the same for contrasts.
Mind you, as per normal I should probably follow my own advice because my essays generally ramble all over the place!
Sue

Decide on the theme of your essay first, after having read both poems and knowing what they both say. The statement of your theme should be in the introduction of your essay. You might say something such as this: "Both of these poems deal with the subject of war..." Then go on to tell the reader what topics you will discuss. Divide the essay into several different topics. For instance:

1. Subject matter
2. Rhyme pattern/or lack of same
3. Language (figurative, realistic, images brought by it)
4. Tone (serious, friendly)
5. Connotation/meaning (both real and suggested)
6. Effect on the reader (emotions triggered by the poems)




Use examples from each of the poems to illustrate how they compare/or contrast on each of these points. Be specific, quote lines from the poem(s) to give the reader a better idea of what you're talking about. The more specific you are in giving examples, the easier it will be to write a specified number of words for the assignment.

Les

Sue,

I'm with you, I do my 'compare and contrast' point by point rather than all one poem and all the next.

Example-


Wordsworth was in favor of the revolution in theory, but blanched at what it came to in practice. Alcock has a more realistic view, and sees revolution as bad from the beginning.

pam

Pam, you're right, hoodies are hooded sweatshirts. They're quite a bogey with the chattering classes at the moment along with "happy slapping". [tinyurl.com]

It seems to be a trend for Brits to call groups by their clothing- I remember someone explaining to me what calling someone an 'anorak' meant.

pam

thanks Everyone for the ideas on approaching this essay. Pam I think you sum up the difference between the two poems very well. Les thanks for your suggestions - in my last essay I was criticised for lack of organisation! Will try to approach this one more logically.

Sue Robert writes : the problem with discussing first one poem and then the other is one of repetition. By the time you have discussed the first and its effects, in relation to the second, you have minimal points to add when discussing the second. (Am I making sense?).

Yes Sue you make perfect sense - and I agree it sounds easier to plan the essay as you suggest. But I know that somewhere I read that jumping between the two poems was not a good idea. So I am off to read the student notes in the assignments booklet and Approaching Poetry. Again !!!!
Thanks Everyone for making the work easier and much more fun. Good luck with TMA 4

Gill

Bump asked about the ending of MA's poem. Even though the poem itself reads like the response of those with property to the prospect of greater freedom for the masses - ie much harrumphing about the rabble invading the estate - I'm just wondering if there's a double irony in the emphasis on such personal things as Contentment, Safety, Peace and Quiet. What I'm trying to say is, was Mary Alcock as much of a reactionary as she appears?

Hi,

As far as structure is concerned, I tried the 'jumpy' approach for a TMA last year and, although I did OK, my tutor did comment on how badly it flowed. I have, since, blocked each part and gone back to compare and contrast at the end. I find if I tackle each poem separately and write notes on another sheet of paper comparing the other poem as I go, then I can use these at the end to put together a decent comparitive conclusion.

Does that make sense?

Currently tackling Tma 04 - A210 & came across this website today - it's a

real godsend!

I'm struggling with the meaning for ll.70 - 74, 'The horse is taught his

manage........The earthquake is not satisfied at once' - is this from other

writing,? I'd be really grateful for any ideas about this section, thank you.

Currently tackling Tma 04 - A210 & came across this website today - it's a

real godsend!

I'm struggling with the meaning for ll.70 - 74, 'The horse is taught his

manage........The earthquake is not satisfied at once' - is this from other

writing,? I'd be really grateful for any ideas about this section, thank you.

Jackie,

It's marked in quotes, so I assume it is a quotation, but I have no idea from where. He seems to be saying- everything else obeys rules.

'The horse is taught his manage, and the wind
Of heaven wheels round and treads in his own steps;
Year follows year, the tide returns again,
Day follows day, all things have second birth;
The earthquake is not satisfied at once'—

pam

Roobarb

The last line is definately ironic and shows the outcome if the instructions are followed to order.

'Adieu' (Goodbye) 'Contentment, Safety, Peace and Quiet'.

These things will be lost forever.........

Thats my thought mode, someone please interject if I am totally on the wrong track.

Difficult one Jackie - I'm still trying to figure it out too.

Taking a long shot (and a deep breath just in case I'm barking up completely the wrong tree) - The quote marks are there because it is quoting the 'dim amonishment'. The admonishment is dim because it's part of his nightmare. If you consider WW's penchant to expressing reality within nature, what he may be saying is that everything has a natural course to follow - and there are things to be learnt along the way. The earthquake may be a metaphor for the revolutionary uprising/current upheaval and this hasn't finished yet.

Any takers???

Sue

So what's the contrast with the poems?

Lois said
As far as structure is concerned, I tried the 'jumpy' approach for a TMA last year and, although I did OK, my tutor did comment on how badly it flowed. I have, since, blocked each part and gone back to compare and contrast at the end. I find if I tackle each poem separately and write notes on another sheet of paper comparing the other poem as I go, then I can use these at the end to put together a decent comparitive conclusion.

Does that make sense?

Lois Yes it does make sense and thanks I think I will try your approach
Gill

I think I agree with Pam - the lines in quotes are about rules - or rather 'laws' of nature. And as Sue says maybe the earhtquake is a metaphor for civil unrest.
Peter - I agree with you, the last line of the ma poem is ironic

I've been thinking about the differences between the poems. Obviously the verse form is totally different. MA uses heroic couplets - while The Prelude is in blank verse with heavy use of enjambment - its meant to be read as part of a dialogue and copies natural speech. The MA poem is a lyric while The Prelude is an epic pshychological narrative.

The tone of the two poems is totally different. The speaker in the MA poem is ironic - probably female and is totally agin the revolution - fearing the chaos that will follow. The speaker in The Prelude had high hopes for the revolution but is disllusioned when he experiences the reality of death and fear in Paris.

Any more thoughts on siumilarities?
Gill

Hi

I have just received TMA 3 back and I am thoroughly chuffed, considering I lack confidence where poetry is concerened. This site got the cogs going in my brain. I therefore would like to express my gratitude to all fellow A2 tenners.

Following on from that however, like Gill, apart from the obvious similarities such as the theme and the use of rhythm I too am struggling with the similarities.

I am hoping for a mental breakthrough ..............hopefully sometime this century!

I came across this site, like others it seems, when I was in a deep fog approaching TMA 04. Thanks for the enlightment everyone.

Similarities I've noted are that they are both poetry about the F Revn., they both express the view of the narrator/poet albeit that they are different views but something they are both passionate about, as well as the fact that they were both written about the same period in time. It seemed to me that when you look at the similarities the contrasts jump out at you; different styles of poetry, different aspects of the F Revn., different views of the consequences of revn., different passions, and from a different position i.e. gender and all that entailed in the Romantic period.

Now I've put my head above the parapet, shoot it down.

Telling my husband about this thread he thought of this quote from Bolt's "Man for All Seasons" which he saw as a school play and has remembered ever since.

And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you—where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? (He leaves him) This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast—man’s laws, not God’s—and if you cut them down—and you’re just the man to do it—d’you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?
(Act One, scene seven)

Jackie wrote,

>It's marked in quotes, so I assume it is a quotation, but I have no idea from >where. He seems to be saying- everything else obeys rules.

>'The horse is taught his manage, and the wind
>Of heaven wheels round and treads in his own steps;
>Year follows year, the tide returns again,
>Day follows day, all things have second birth;
>The earthquake is not satisfied at once'—

The note at the back of the Anthology mentions 'As you like it'
but that only refers to the first phrase.

Every other search I have tried comes up with 'Wordsworth in the Prelude' so I am in the dark too.

One thing I did find was that WW edited out of the quote some references to stars, always coming around again - and altered the way he handled tides and winds. If it is a self generated quote - why the quotation marks?

'Sleep no more' is from Macbeth - immediately after the murder - and carries tremendous psychological guilt baggage with it.

I think the way events have whacked WW right in the personal psychologicals, whereas Alcock is dealing with the precepts and consequences of revolution at a conceptual level,
is one of the major differences between the two texts.

Carrying on the Shakespearean references - there are tigers in 'Lear' as well as Blake

John

1. I suspect that 'heaven wheels round and treads in his own steps' is a variation on 'the wheel has come full circle' (King Lear).

2. When reading Mary Alcock, there is a reference in her biography to one of her poems having been influential in the release of some prisoners.

3. Take ll 13-17 away from the rest of the poem and see how they read.

4. At the same time as Alcock was writing, the biggest land-grab in British history was taking place in the form of the Enclosures and the Highland Clearances, there was considerable agitation about State corruption and the Law was deeply unjust (a woman could be hanged for stealing cloth)

Hi everyone,

I couldn't get to the site for a while. It kept crashing. Just finished TMA4. I think rhoobarb made some excellent comments about historical events above.

Anyway, must get back to work,

Cathy

Hi everyone,

Been in the books for a few days...............well maybe more!!!
But, just as a thought to the similarities of the poems, what about:

both poems were not written specifically for publication.

both poems, were published after the poets death by friends and family

MA wrote mainly for pleasure, and WW believed that 'the first principle of poetry should be pleasure.

And both offer a warning. Even though WW had hindsight as it was written after the events.

What do you think, any significance

Gail

Hi everyone i've just visited the website as i've been ploughing through the book.
Lois you made me laugh when i just read that about the horse poem i feel the same i never want to do that again ever!!!!!

THEN AGAIN I'M NOT ENTIRELY HAPPY WITH THIS ONE EITHER

HOWEVER HERE IS MY INPUT NO-MATTER HOW RUBBISH IT MAY BE.

I agree that MA is definitley going down the Rousseau route and saying laws are for the good of everyone and do promote 'contentment' and indeed 'safety'. However, as trendie has just said i feel these where the personal thoughts of MA (not published etc), and had she had the free voice that many male writers were given this is what she would have told the people of Eng. I do not believe though that she was writing this with any hidden political agenda for women's rights i believe this may just be an unwitting theme that appears in the poem.

As for Wordsworth well i just think he is rather dull and miserable and down right twisty, my god he had a lot to say about himself, his life, his happiness, his misery, me, me, me i don't know.

Hi All,

Yes, both poems published posthumously. At least with WW you know he had an intended audience who probably read bits along the way - Coleridge, his sister and the like. I wonder who read MA? Such a shame to waste a good satire on yourself!
Because of this I can't see any purposeful gender reading either - I don't think the author and the speaker are one and the same.

First hint of humour in line 1 of 'Instructions'.... you wouldnt 'sing' instructions would you? I reckon this is an immediate suggestion of comedy.

Secondly,line 5 '......liberty in vogue' Vogue is something that is fashionable temporarily, i reckon Alcock alluding to the fact that these ideals would only seem like a good idea until put into action on a permanent basis.

Whatdoyoureckon?

Hi
Finally found you again! Thank goodness! I have been reading comments with interest.

I agree with every one! We all seem to be thinking along the same lines. Thank goodness!!

I was way off the beaten track with TMA 3 apparently. Its good to find somewhere to chat and share views without getting told off!!

Im hoping to get cracking tomorrow with final draft after wading through copious notes.

I might be back if any thing significant springs to mind!
Cheers
Max

Vogue is also a french word. liberty is an english word with a french root and is used far more than freedom.

i think the speaker is taking advanctage of the situation to get what he wants because it's in fashion. he does not really subscribe to the ideals of human rights etc.

that's what i think!

Hi all.
Found the discussions very helpful for TMA03, thanks to everyone involved for giving me the opotunity to express some ideas and opinions without them being jumped on and told they are wrong (unlike a certain site thats more like a chat up room!)
Just a little something i spotted in the last 2 lines of MA, the exclamation marks.

Then hail to Liberty, Reform and Riot!
Adieu, Contentment, Safety, Peace and Quiet!

Also the capitialisation of the first letters of Liberty, Reform, Riot, Contentment, Safety, Peace, Quiet

Does anyone think that maybe this poem is about Alcocks personal opinion on what would happen should laws be overuled and she's strongly emphasizing this in her final 2 lines with the use of capitalisation and exclamation marks?
I could me way off the mark here, but its just a thought x

Hi Samantha,

I thought the use of the exclamation marks were for drmatic effect. The speaker in the poem is a parisian revolutionary leader trying to rouse potential English revolutionaries. Therefore, I though the ending was like the end of a dramatic political speech. MA capitalises Liberty and Reform, views of the revolutionaries. By capitalising Contentment etc she is saying that these qualities are just as important as Liberty. She feels people are abusing the ideal of liberty and it is more like anarchy. She warns people that if they want Liberty they may sacrifice other more valuable qualities in trying to get it.

SO I think you are right but I don't know whether it is her personal opinion. I think she is reflecting the conservative British attitudes of the time.

My thoughts.

I also find this site useful as I am living in Moscow so have no other contact with OU students.

Good luck with the essay

Cathy

I find the use of liberty curious. The slogan was liberte, egalite, fraternite - liberty, equality, fraternity (RB p.88). Liberte in french means freedom. In English however, doesn't liberty mean to be free from oppression or having the power to act however you like.

I think MA defines Liberty in the second line 'freedom, I mean, without or Church or King'

If you look at the where liberty appears, it is paired with rogue, to do whate'er I choose, to raise a mob and overturn the state etc. - implicitly, I think MA could be saying that if you get rid of these so called 'oppressors' - Judges, Church, King who have rules and laws to abide by - it will be replaced by uncontrollable rioting and lawlessness - Liberty, Reform and Riot - people acting just as they please - a far greater oppressor.

But otherwise - Peter, Cathy and Samantha - I can see all your points too!
Cathy - do you think the speaker's male?

Sue

I just wanted to thank you all for your comments, both on this TMA and the previous one - got a fantastic mark and I know it was because of the ideas flying around which really inspired me. I don't get to tutorials so this is an absolute boon. When I first approached TMA04 I thought the Alcock poem was going to the one I could get most out of but on thorough re-reading, I'm finding the Wordsworth extract has much more depth. Could I be turning into a Wordsworth convert? - No!?!?!?!

Just a thought - is the spelling of canon in line 8 of the extract 'of the time' or is it a play on words (ie code of law) and is he therefore being ironic? Or am I just so into analysing poetry now that I see symbolism in every single word? Maybe I'll go and have a nice lie down....

Sue,

I think the speaker betrays 'male' traits but I don't think the speaker is a particular person as such but the French revolutionaries in general which included members of either sex.

MA's appeal for contentment and quiet is quite 'feminine' if you think about the male/feminine spheres of this time.

I think liberty and freedom are very similar. I tried thinking about the differences also. Liberty is from French and Freedom from Anglo-saxon.

The use of liberty and vogue make you think of the French words and french revolution though.

My thought!

Cathy

Hi Guys
I know this has been spoken about earlier, but Im struggling with the metre with WW and I can't find the Meter Family thread that was mentioned earlier.

Sorry to be a pain but I find the metre the hardest part of analysising poetry and I can't just not mention it. My tutor told me I was completely wrong in TMA 3 but didn't show me what was correct! So Im lacking in confidence for this TMA

Any ideas?
Max

Not that this has anything to do with either poem-but it might provide some relief.

pam

WHY DOROTHY WORDSWORTH IS NOT AS FAMOUS AS HER BROTHER – Lynn Peters

‘I wandered lonely as a . . .
They’re in your top drawer, William,
Under your socks –
I wandered lonely as a –
No, not that drawer, the top one.
I wandered by myself –
Well wear the ones you can find,
No, don’t get overwrought, my dear,
I’m coming.’

‘ I was out one day wandering
Lonely as a cloud, when –
Softboiled egg, yes my dear,
As usual, three minutes –
As a cloud when all of a sudden –
Look, I said I’ll cook it,
Just hold on, will you –
All right. I’m coming.

‘One day I was out for a walk
When I saw this flock –
It can’t be too hard, it had three minutes,
Well put some butter in it.
- This host of golden daffodils
- As I was out for a stroll one –

‘Oh you fancy a stroll, do you.
Yes, all right William. I’m coming.
It’s on the peg. Under your hat.
I’ll bring my pad, shall I, in case
You want to jot something down?’

Hi
Pam - thanks very amusing!!

I found the thread on metre and Im still none the wiser. I just dont get the stressed/unstressed bit and I find myself overstressing (in more ways than one!!)

Just a word about MA-Is she saying she would like to be like the revolutionaries? 'The envied liberty to be a rogue' To me the whole poem is saying 'yeah sure we can rebel and cause mayhem and steal and overturn etc, but you can kiss peace and safety goodby. Am I on the right track?
Max

I'm not much at meter either- perhaps Hugh will join in.

No, I don't think MA wants to run wild and cause mayhem. Instead, she's using sarcasm to warn us of the dangers of too much liberty.

pam

Me again! I definitely find MA easier to read. All the stopping and starting in WW I keep losing my place!!

MA appears to be mimicking a revolutionary and all their rantings and ravings until the final two lines, then she spells out the consequences of such behaviour. Would you agree?

After TMA 3 my confidence is about zero. I passed but the tutors comments were less than encouraging.

To be honest I can't really make alot of WW's. I know what its about but there's so much of it that I don't get. For instance, 'So that he questions the mute leaves with pain/And half upbraids their silence.' I think he's regretting that he once supported the revolution and now he can see the damage its causing he's ashamed. Any takers?

I need to get cracking on this tomorrow so I can get it to my tutor in time. Good luck to fellow students!
Max

Hi Max

WW- I think if you take the whole section; 'looking as doth a man........
half upbraids there silence' (l. 12-17), he's looking at a closed book - silent pages, the content of which he no longer understands - perhaps he's looking for answers but met with silence? All part of his general disillusionment, I think.

I can also see the three wise monkeys - look, see and hear no evil (but then I can get carried away sometimes!)- this can be used to describe someone who doesn't want to be involved in a situation. I think it's fair to say WW didn't agree with the bloodshed - he wasn't anti-monarchy so he would have had a lot of internal wranglings with the situation.

Hope this helps a bit,

Sue

>MA appears to be mimicking a revolutionary and all their rantings and ravings until the final two lines, then she spells out the consequences of such behaviour. Would you agree?

Yes, good idea.

I'm with you on WW- he's so high-flown, I lose myself.

pam

And another thing.....

If you take the fact that he's back in Paris after an horrific event, it may be a repeat of the feeling about London (see Romantic writings, p.129) he experienced in book 7 - Here he does not understand the 'language' either - 'lies to the ear, and lies to every sense' (book vii, l.574). And he had such high hopes then, too.
In book 10,'...Again I ranged, More eagerly than I had done before' - he's hoping for inspiration but ultimately left with a closed book 'written in a tongue he cannot read' (l.15)

This is a bit off the track but a thought nonetheless.

Sue