Hi everyone!

I'm another A210 student - just wanted to say thanks for all your helpful thoughts.
is this poem written in 2nd person narrative?? the frequent use of thy/thou seems to suggest this although the title is most certainly 3rd person with the use of his??? am I going mad??

Mel

Hi Melanie,

I initially thought that this was second person but further examination suggests that it is in first person. The speaker is the implied 'I' in this poem. She/he(since we don't know whether or not JB has created a persona) is superficially admiring of the horse and directs us to feel similarly. As soon as you 'see' the speaker in the verse- it is first person. I can see why you might think that, though!

HTH

Liz

Thank God for this site!!!!

I really thought that I was the only one that left their TMAs to the last minute. I don't have anything to add at the moment as I haven't even started writing my essay yet, and by the time I do, you all will probably have submitted yours!!!

Thank you thank you thank you

thanks Liz, onwards with the TMA!

Mel

hi all, things are getting fairly desperate with my essay at the mo, and i have a big hole on my page where 200 words should be, so desperately looking through the text book, and the a post above, i saw mention of the actual way the poem is laid out on the page sometimes being significant.

Its structure doesn't look very exciting to me, but if anyone more intellegent has any thoughts it would be greatly appreciated, or for that matter any other padding beyond the basic rhyme, rythme, metaphor stuff.

Also thought i spotted a new thread for the next tma, but it appears to have disappeared, are the mediators getting stroppy with the ou invasion, cause judging by the uphill battle this one has been i was planning to be back on here when the next one comes around!

Big thank you to everyone anyway, you're all life savers!!
Cheers Dan

Dan, when the time comes for a new thread with a SPECIFIC poem in mind your post will be honored. Meanwhile, consider the following in relation to this poem:

1. Rhyme pattern
2. Theme
3. Meaning
4. Emotional impact
5. Overall effectiveness of the poem.

If you haven't considered the theme of patriotism here, that should certainly be considered as well as the poem in its historical context.


Les

Thanks Kirstie
For your input. It's 5:37 am on the 10th and I am still not finished. Still got 500 words to go. I hadn't really given attention to the natural elements in the poem - which considering its importance to romantic poets - I should have done.

Still very unsure of Point of View but am off to bed for a couple of hours. I KNOW this essay is going to be late.

Ginnyfly

Don't worry Emma, I haven't even started mine yet!

Hi i want to cry

I haven't been much use sorry i hope i can help more in the next threads . Here i go again it's goingto be late i just know it

Has anybody noticed There is also assonance in the repetition in the word ‘thy’ referring to the horse. This appears in the poem fourteen times, leaving only eight lines without the word ‘thy’ in them. However the words ‘thou’, ‘thee’, and ‘thine’ are all used in some of the remaining lines. Leaving only six lines in which the horse is given no mention. The horse is obviously, even if it is unwittingly, the most relevant part of the poem considering the description of it is much more detailed than that of the soldier and on two occasions it has a double assertion, allowing the reader to feel the horse is the main topic of conversation this occurs on lines 16 and 20 the words ‘thee’ and ‘thy’ are used together on the same line:

‘Dares thus bestride thee, chafing in thy might,’

‘And, smiling, gently strokes thee in thy wrath,’

Hi...On A210 too! Did you ever figure out what kind of poem this is? I did kind of end up thinking it may be a lyrical poem....???????

I spoke to my tutor about this and she said the poem followed no particular pre-existing form.

You can tell i didn't say that
Lyndsey

Just wondering if any one else had this thought regarding the mention of environmental elements. As the soldier and horse are heading to the fields of war, death is mentioned near the end. I think these elements such as air and earth are mentioned on purpose and could be construed as the last reminder of what they may leave behind?

Hi Lynday,
I'm not sure if you're on the right track with your assonance 'thy' comment as isn't assonance the repetition of vowel sounds? Not sure though

Mark
I picked up on the environmental elements in the horses description and think this could be demonstrating the horses power- as natural forces are more powerful than human ones and uncontrollable by humans (the rider)too. I think you can make whatever point you like with poetry though as long as you use evidence to support it- it is so subjective!

Good luck with finishing the essay!

Id just like to say i have found this extremely helpful in a time of need and would definately like to be involved in further discussions as we all continue with A210

Thank You.

Hi Lyndsey,

Yes I noticed that too. The horse is definately the main focus of the poem. As you've already mentioned, 'thy' appears fourteen times, and the title itself: 'The HORSE and HIS Rider' certainly gives us an indication of where the focus is. It's almost as though the rider is incidental.

I see this as another tie-in with Aesop's fable (see previous posts). In the fable, because of neglect, the horse cannot carry the soldier and he must go on foot, his effectiveness (and image, no doubt) greatly diminished. In the poem, Baillie seems to be saying that it is the horse that counts, not the rider. The rider is only 'godly to the sight' because of the horse, and without it would be no more than a 'creature' (line 15).

Gav.

In trouble, haven't started yet - but hopefully this site will get me going.
cheers!!!

I haven't been paying this site much attention over past 24 hrs- somewhat distracted but it's done now and here's a few belated comments (for what they're worth)

I find the elemental image very specific - Air/earth/water/fire - winds of heaven/pebbles/white-churning foam/curling smoke and they are placed in oppostion to the war images of muskets, canons and falchion (with me?)
Nature v warfare. The nature image is not specific though and appears to only present elementally.
Elements have gender - air & fire masculine, earth & water feminine. The maculine elements are ethereal images, the femine ones are agitated and broken (oppressed?) The rider also oppresses the horse

That was my view anyway

p.s

Good Luck All!!!

Sue

Hi all

I may not say assonance can any one help with that because the repeated 'thy' sounds like the vowel 'i' and i know that sounds silly but then my notes from my tutor have this example see what you can make of it:

ASSONANCE - A repeated vowel-sound e.g. 'pale, faded, grey.'

See what i mean i take this to be the repeated 'a' sound yet there is no 'a' in her spelling of 'grey'.

Oh God i'm going mad i need to go to the tea party with the rest of them and be done with it. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

Hi Lyndsey

My trusty OED states: resemblance of sound...arising from the rhyming of stressed vowels. I agree the y is pronouced i but it's not a vowel. Wouldn't like to take sides here!!!

Any help?

OH no i would rather know because i wouldn't want to be marked down


Thank you very much
Lyndsey

I think thee, thy and thou are important though as I think they help make the poem into a laudatory address - almost an ode, but not?

Haven't even started yet... have tons of work to do yet . Anyway thanks loads for all the help on this site. Good idea to get ideas again for TMA 04. I get rubbish marks for my tma's 'cos I don't know what they want... it's hard sometimes. Well on with it...
I am inclined to think that this poem eulogises the horse while satirising his rider... the British soldier. the patriotism is evident here.
GOOD LUCK

Yes thanks for that so do i, i have now taken out the assonance bit.

I am drawing to a conclusion oh no next comes the grade

Oh poor yasmin just started, i'm not finished yet though so don't worry.

Oh my god i'm finished thanks everyone can't wait till the next one, oh my god how bad does that sound.

Lyndsey

very relieved and far too keen to me!!!

Hi All,

My essay is now in the hand of the Royal Mail praise God. Its such a great feeling to relax and look forward to a really slobby evening. Some wine- a movie and then an early night. Sue I am really impressed with your recognition of the four elements! I missed it and am now kicking myself as the essay is out of my hands. Damn it!! For those who havent finished one thing that struck me that I think is important. The speakers attitude to the horse compared to the rider. The speaker addresses the horse but not the rider - note the three uses of Thy in the first few lines and then compare them to the lines describing of the rider - also note the exclamation marks in line 15 and 22
ginnyfly

ginnyfly

With your input throughout this site, I'm sure you've done more than OK!

Thanks to all for their thoughts -
Well done all who have finished, and my heartfelt sympathies to those still struggling on!

Wine.....mmm, sounds great if I can get the kids in bed early...!!

i FFFFIIIINNNISSSSHHHHEEEEDDDD!!!!!!
i'll see you all somewhere later sometime...it was good talking to you all, i hope we meet again on the next one....
jamie

Glad to have found this site. I am struggling even with being able to attend tutorials.
Anyone noticed how many times the word thy is used, even during the description of the rider or have I missed that part of the chat? good luck to all - about to try and write 1200 more words.

Don't worry Adela, the ideas on here will spur you on (pardon the pun!).


Good luck!

Lou

Dan,

Something someone else said triggered the thought that Baillie is looking at a statue and describing it.

pam

I think the argument works for me- after all the vowels include 'and sometimes 'y'. If not, switch to consonance for the 'th' sounds.

pam

>Baillie is looking at a statue ...

Aha! Interesting. Possibly an ekphrastic poem? Point of trivia if that is the case, since the author does not mention the position of the horse's legs. It is said that both front legs in the air means the rider died in battle; one leg says death from wounds after battle; and all legs on the ground the rider died from other causes.

My usually-reliable rumor catchers at Snopes say that is false, however:

[www.snopes.com]

Oh, well, it was a good story for a while there.

Hurrah, finished, even found I had too much to say after all that discussion! Just thought i'd share that with some fellow OU-ers!!

Roll on the weekend, relax, enjoy and be happy....until the next one that is....

Bye for now everybody....Lou

To Everyone,

The analysis of the Horse and his rider is now in the post. Thank you to everyone for your imput. So many of us students have been helped.

Take care,

Jeanne.

Just like to say thanks to everyone for their input, it has been really helpful. And now, TMA 04.......

Hi all

I too am putting the finishing touches to my essay. I am so grateful to everyone on this site. I had been away on holiday for two weeks and tried to keep up but being in the Caribbean was a once in a lifetime opportunity for me and the work took a bit of a back seat.

Looking forward to TMA4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, my first input, rather late really but just wanted to say thanks to whoever stated this site as have found it v helpful! Sneaky of those OU masters to pick the least well-known poems ever!!! Repetition of intitial consonants is known as alliteration if that helps at this late stage....Good luck guys!

Hi All

I know this thread has been helpful to all working on TMA 03- myself included.

I don't want to be a 'lame ass' when I say this, but I think everyone working on A210 should try to use the smart room- there has been some criticism on the A210 conference that people are asking for the answers for questions outside of the course conferences (despite the fact that the smart room conference facilities are outside of the OU remit).

Whilst I do not consider this reasonable criticism, I think it would be in everyone's best interests to limit A210 discussions to the smart room. This way, all discussions could be 'pooled' and we wouldn't invade this conference, which is clearly not intended for our purposes. I appreciate that students find this more 'user friendly' than either the OU conference facilities or indeed the smart group, but it is therefore up to us to make it the place that it should be- for students to discuss issues as we have recently seen on this thread.

Rather than going to the A210 conference, if you could contact me directly to ask for an invitation, I would be happy to provide it. That way we can avoid taking up valuable space on this conference and reduce the criticism which is clearly damaging personal interactions within the conference.

I am still grateful to whomver set up this website- I hope that we will not take up too much more of your valuable space and time!

Cheers
Liz

Hi,
As an A210 tutor I have found this discussion very interesting. Two points. The reason we don't discuss the TMA poems in tutorials is so that students who are unable to attend tutorials are not unfairly penalised. Most tutors look at a poem that is vaguely similar to give an idea of the sort of thing that we are looking for, so you should be able to get some clues from that.
On the point of referencing, it would be extremely useful if you could reference this site in your essays (I know this is a bit late for most of you). It would help to explain why the same ideas keep cropping up in different essays. It was in search of the answer to this question that I came on here in the first place.
Liz

At last, someone from the teaching side saying hello.
If you've looked at other threads on this site you'll have seen we have a lot of appeals for help from school students in NSW with a coursework topic of Journeys. There have been calls for teachers there to explain why so many students are so unsure of what is being asked of (other than the obvious, they didn't listen in class) but no response.

You will have also noticed that the regulars on the site don't write essays for anybody.

I think I am finally following some of these codes.

1. TMA means 'tutor monitored assignment'.

2. OU is Open University [www3.open.ac.uk]

3. A210 is Approaching Literature [www3.open.ac.uk]

Just stumbled onto this while doing my A210 essay. Does anyone know when The horse... was published exactly?

Hi
I also am really pleased we have all had this discussion i feel it has helped enormously.
When i attended the Introduction to humanities we were encouraged to meet at the half moon pub for weekly discussions, this was lead by one of the students who gave a talk at Durham University, my tutor at the time said this was a great idea, and would be a great alternative to tutorials if you could not get to them.

As i could not attend, i feel this is the same kind of informal chat, we have on this forum.

Everyone throwing ideas into the pot, in order for us all to eventually make up our own mind on what we feel it right for our individual TMA submissions.

I look forward to discussing TMA 04.

Thank you
Lyndsey

OOOh also i can't believe this discussion actually made me work hard for once i normally fly off an assignment at the last minute in about 5 hours. But this time i did it over four days and took altogather 16 hours. I really had to think what i thought and believed was my view in comparison.

Only problem is if i get a rubbish mark i'll break down.

Oh yes in tears not literally break down i'm not that distraght yet.

Although there is always TMA 04.

Gutenburg sez 1790:

[www.gutenberg.org]

Actually, it doesn't bother us if you want to hang out here- I much prefer this conversation to the more usual 'do my homework for me' request.

pam

Several of the class members stated that they had difficulty accessing the 'smart classroom' or the various discussion groups.

Thanks a mill for all the help -
gINNYFLY

Hi guys,
How did everyone do for their TMA03?

I really found this site helpful. Managed to complete the essay on time and had the confidence to say what I felt about the poem.- If I get above 65 I'll be delighted.
ginnyfly

Hi on the subject of tutorials on reading my posting that I obviously didnt proof read I have sounded a little derogatory about the tutorial. Just for the record I think that they are essential and I have gained lots of information and its just nice to meet other people mad enough to do the same qualification! so if you can get there go! PS found this website really useful looking forward to the support for TMA04 thanks

I really got into this essay and the constant urge to go and check this site to see where everyone else was going really kept the enthusiasm going.

Thanks for the support Hugh, Pam and all. It's nice to have somewhere else to hang out, even if we try the OU site as well. Your input is greatly appreciated.

As for me, I enjoyed my essay and that counts for a lot. A pass would be nice too!!!

Sue

Yes, thank you so much to Hugh, Pam and everyone , this has been great , and has helped make the TMA (dare i say) more fun. I also agree with Sue i too loved to check this site, and see how we were all progressing. It really spurs you on, i will be happy if i get over 65 thank you again.

Hi all,

I have been looking through the TMA Booklet ahead to TMA4 and this one seems a difficult one. We are all going to need each other's help. I did not purchase the Romantic Writings - An Anthology Book due to lack of funds. I have sourced the text on the internet for TMA4 and would really appreciate it if someone with access to the book Romantic Writings - An Anthology could confirm if these extracts are the correct ones for me to work from? Thanks all.


INSTRUCTIONS,
SUPPOSED TO BE WRITTEN IN PARIS,
FOR THE MOB IN ENGLAND .

OF Liberty, Reform, and Rights I sing,
Freedom I mean, without or Church or King;
Freedom to seize and keep whate'er I can,
And boldly claim my right – The Rights of Man:
Such is the Blessed liberty in vogue,
The envied liberty to be a rogue;
The right to pay no taxes, tithes, or dues;
The liberty to do what'er I chuse;
The right to take by violence and strife
My neighbour's goods, and, if I please, his life;
The liberty to raise a mob or riot,
For spoil and plunder ne'er were got by quiet;
The right to level and reform the great;
The liberty to overturn the state;
The right to break through all the nation's laws
And boldly dare to take rebellion's cause:
Let all be equal, every man my brother;
Why one have property, and not another?
Why suffer titles to give awe and fear?
There shall not long remain one British peer;
Nor shall the criminal appalled stand
Before the mighty judges of the land;
Nor judge, nor jury shall there longer be,
Nor any jail, but every pris'ner free;
All law abolish'd, and with sword in hand
We'll seize the property of all the land.
Then hail to Liberty, Reform, and Riot!
Adieu contentment, Safety, Peace, and Quiet! (48-49)

Mary Alcock



THE PRELUDE
BOOK TENTH
RESIDENCE IN FRANCE

And perfect triumph for the better cause. 30

The State--as if to stamp the final seal
On her security, and to the world
Show what she was, a high and fearless soul,
Exulting in defiance, or heart-stung
By sharp resentment, or belike to taunt
With spiteful gratitude the baffled League,
That had stirred up her slackening faculties
To a new transition--when the King was crushed,
Spared not the empty throne, and in proud haste
Assumed the body and venerable name 40
Of a Republic. Lamentable crimes,
'Tis true, had gone before this hour, dire work
Of massacre, in which the senseless sword
Was prayed to as a judge; but these were past,
Earth free from them for ever, as was thought,--
Ephemeral monsters, to be seen but once!
Things that could only show themselves and die.

Cheered with this hope, to Paris I returned,
And ranged, with ardour heretofore unfelt,
The spacious city, and in progress passed 50
The prison where the unhappy Monarch lay,
Associate with his children and his wife
In bondage; and the palace, lately stormed
With roar of cannon by a furious host.
I crossed the square (an empty area then!)
Of the Carrousel, where so late had lain
The dead, upon the dying heaped, and gazed
On this and other spots, as doth a man
Upon a volume whose contents he knows
Are memorable, but from him locked up, 60
Being written in a tongue he cannot read,
So that he questions the mute leaves with pain,
And half upbraids their silence. But that night
I felt most deeply in what world I was,
What ground I trod on, and what air I breathed.
High was my room and lonely, near the roof
Of a large mansion or hotel, a lodge
That would have pleased me in more quiet times;
Nor was it wholly without pleasure then.
With unextinguished taper I kept watch, 70
Reading at intervals; the fear gone by
Pressed on me almost like a fear to come.
I thought of those September massacres,
Divided from me by one little month,
Saw them and touched: the rest was conjured up
From tragic fictions or true history,
Remembrances and dim admonishments.
The horse is taught his manage, and no star
Of wildest course but treads back his own steps;
For the spent hurricane the air provides 80
As fierce a successor; the tide retreats
But to return out of its hiding-place
In the great deep; all things have second birth;
The earthquake is not satisfied at once;
And in this way I wrought upon myself,
Until I seemed to hear a voice that cried,
To the whole city, "Sleep no more." The trance
Fled with the voice to which it had given birth;
But vainly comments of a calmer mind
Promised soft peace and sweet forgetfulness. 90

Hi all

Just thought I should mention that I was emailed the correct extracts for the TMA4 text. Of the ones I received, the Mary Alcock was correct and the same as the above but the Wordsworth was not. Thought I should mention this in case anyone decides to use the ones above.

Thanks and good luck.

Victor

Hi Victor
thanks for that look forward to talking to you again.
Good luck

Hi,

Thank you sooooo much for all the help. My only concern is that all the TMAs will say the same things!!! I suppose that will happen, though with everyone writing about the same poem!! Anyway, I look forward to TMA04 and hope that I can add something to the discussion rather than selfishly stealing all your ideas! I had a real nightmare as I got to 1300 words and my computer crashed and left me with the 200 words I had saved (this was at 1am on the 11th !!) I then went completely blank and couldn't remeber a word I had written and sat and cried for an hour and a half as the original essay was actually pretty good (even if i do say so myself). I had to beg my boss to drive my TMA to my Tutor's house on the evening of the 12th just to get it in on time!! A real nightmare but I survived thanks to all the help on this site. I have learnt to save my work more often!! My 5 year old daughter did ask why I didn't just use a pen and paper in the first place which didn't go down too well after 6 hours sleep in 2 nights!!

Thank you so much, it was very much appreciated and I will be back soon to share some thoughts!!

Lois..xx

thanks guys,

i have been sick for a week and its 130am and i have 399 words, my assignment is four days late- boo
but this site really is helping me.

let's keep this open for TMA4!

Cathy, you need to start a NEW thread for that. This one will be closed shortly. Many computers have trouble loading after the thread reaches 150 or so posts.

Les
Moderator

Call me computer illiterate but how do we find the new thread...?
Amanda

You hope the one who starts it gives it an obvious title. It might be this
[www.emule.com]

Go to top of page and click 'Go to topic'. Jeanne's started a new thread for Instructions and Prelude. (well that's viewing it on a Mac so I hope it's the same for PC!)

Sue

can anyone please help me with the horse and his rider im behind 3 tma's if anyone has anything on tma03, tma04, tma 05 please please help