Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favour fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.


Basically, what I need to be able to do is lead a seminar on this particular poem. I'm not going to lie, poetry is by no means my forte. However, this is probably my favirote poem of those that I have read. Anyway, not to get too off topic, I know that this is obivously a discussion of the end of the world. Fire is most likely passion, or power. Ice is hatred. Also, I read somewhere that there is a reference to religion vs. science here, but I can't find it. Anyway, would love to get the opinion of some of you who are more literate at poetry than I am.

Brian, I find the comparison you mention far-fetched, but others aparently don't. Go here:

[vccslitonline.cc.va.us]


Les

To me, it was intended as humor. As Les mentions, many disagree.

[www.english.uiuc.edu]

When a poet discusses the end of the universe, also known as Armageddon, the Revelation, and the Apocalypse, it is a serious poem which gains momentum from a sense of helplessness. It makes a person feel insignificant, miniscule compared to the turpitude forces of the clandestine unknown, where everything is spurious.
I have seen movies in which impending disaster is on the brink of befalling the cast of characters, and in response, they gather and converse about the problem. In every one of these movies, whether disaster be global warming or the ozone, there is always this line: “Do? There isn’t anything we can do, unless you consider sitting here waiting to die praying, something.” Something like the end of the world makes you feel small, because you can’t do anything. Take a forest fire. As a firefighter you see before your eyes life burning, trees engulfed in flame, smoke grasping trunks, choking. Animals flee, panic-stricken and intimidated. You try to purge the flame, but to no avail, and as the blaze ascends to the utmost meridian of the backwoods, you realize it is out of control, out of your hands. True, this betides firemen and women, but the vulnerability also manifests in a different form, and in people’s lives. The depression, in which many were left unemployed, featured people lost and dazed, for the first time not in control of their lives, incontrovertibly upon an irreversible current towards ruination.
The first line in Fire and Ice, “Some say the world will end in fire;” is a shocking entrance. In fire? The cessation, the terminus of life? Here, Robert Frost is probably referring to Hades or biblical records. “Some say in ice.“ This might refer to the belief of a second ice age. Then; “From what I’ve tasted from desire,/I hold with those who favor fire. In accordance with ancient beliefs, Frost believes in fire. Everlasting torture by fire as penalization in the afterlife is a widely spread belief, described as hell, the inferno, the lake of sulfur, and -pardon my language- hell. The part about tasting desire expediently describes greed consuming the world. Wars have been fought over human desire, and some have been among the largest in history, including the Trojan War. The Trojan War was waged for naught but a woman!
Fire incinerates and scorches, but it also cleanses. That is why people use it to cook, to eradicate germs. Modern technology which employ ice or cold temperatures do not cleanse or rid food of germs, but only slow the functions of microorganisms. Mayhap that is why Frost chose fire. (Then again, where there any refrigerators in Frost‘s time?) Another enigma is the section of the lines concerning hate and ice;
I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
“Hate leads to anger, anger leads to fear, and fear brings revenge, a dish served cold. Ice would also inevitably asphyxiate all mankind, so it would obviously fit the role of exterminator. The cold numbs your nervous system, which monitors your body and reports damage with pain. Thus, ice would result in a much kinder death than fire, for fire wakes you, and you would be aware of every single burn on your body, and feel your flesh bake and your skin roast and conflagrate. Beyond doubt, fire would be a far challenging path to undertake. Fire and Ice is truly a powerful poem, and though brief, can only be given an explanation after much deep contemplation. (My explanations and theories provide sufficient evidence, no?)

>My explanations and theories provide sufficient evidence, no?

Not to me, no.

>When a poet discusses the end of the universe, ... it is a serious poem ...

You are saying it is impossible for a poet to do that in a light manner? Or even tongue in cheek? I disagree, sorry.

"From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favour fire."

What does desire have to do with a death by fire? To me, nothing. If someone gets all hot and bothered, they are not suicidal. Merely horny.

Note also that the poem appears in The Silver Treasury of Light Verse, collected by Oscar Williams. He apparently also believed it to not be of an apocalyptic nature.

Still, I appreciate your the time and effort, thanks.

Hey, I'm only 12!

this poem is movine in a way that i cry

Though I've never in my life written for a message board before, I feel compelled to suggest to Hugh that perhaps not all passion--and particularly the passion that Frost writes about in this poem--has to do with being horny. There are passions in life that have nothing to do with the genitals. Passion, as Brian noted to begin with, for power is one. I won't presume to know more about what Frost means by this poem than the rest of you, but I'm pretty convinced we must put more consideration into the language than this--getting our brains out of our pants would be a good start.

Ah. Most kind of you, thanks.

Actually, Fire and Ice is my favourite poem because it talks about things in life.
In my analysis fire and ice both have positive and negative contributions to our personal lifes. For instance when you are in love and are so passionate it could be like fire it consumes everything and it is the same with ice that is so cool .

"that have nothing to do with the genitals"

*grin*, no you can't taste with your genitals. I think he is more focused on oral sex in this poem.

Really, for me it is so clear this poem is tongue in cheek as hugh stated. Of course, it is a very intellegent and witty tongue in cheek poem, but it is imho impossible to read seriously.

I'm doing an english assignment on the poem, and we have to find both a dominant and an alternate reading of a Frost poem. Unable to do 'The Secret' (its hard to get 1000 words from a couplet you must agree), I am doing 'Fire and Ice'.

I do not see how the poem is particularly tongue in cheek, nor humourous. Yet it is not black clouds and spooky music either. I can see how audiences may sometimes view it as a comment on the clashing opinions of science and religion though. I doubt Frost meant any sexual connotations through his choice of language, i agree that sometimes one must take their mind from their pants. I think that the poem is simply a statement about the duality of emotions and elements, different as they amy be, that can destroy human existance (even on a small scale).

You could be right. Here are some more thoughts you may find of value:

[www.english.uiuc.edu]

Did RLF deliberately make it opaque? You betcha.

he compares ice and fire with love and hate. "burning passion" "cold hearted hate"

I know my response has nothing to do with the essential features of poetry, but when authors or poets write about something referring to the end of the world, directly or indirectly, the message in all I believe is the same. They project their own insecurities on to the world at large. Now their insecurities could arise because of any reason, lost hope, lost love, fear or depression. Etcetera. Personally I don't think that the world could ever end because if our world is created by God then God being eternal, he would make our world eternal too, why would He have made it otherwise? Then again I may be wrong.

But He says in Apocalypse that the world will be destroyed to make way for a newer better one (or a hyperspace by-pass)

That's not possible because God is just and so to make a newer better life He would not play with the lives of the people already here, because that would be the just thing to do. Where is the logic in making a better life by ruining the old, what meaning could the new have if the old was stripped of all meaning. Perhaps, because we see death and destruction in our life and nothing eternal, so we can't identify with it and so we naturally assume that the world will end and project that on others. I know I could just go and write a poetry that talks about the end of the world, but that doesn't mean the world will end. But then I don't know the truth, so it's hard to say what is what.

It's because God is just that there is an end, it is the time of judgement when the good go to heaven and the wicked to hell.

And how is this related to Fire and Ice?

Beena and I are discussing whether poets who write about the end of the world are merely displaying their own insecurities in an eternal world.

I am of the opinion that they do not need to be insecure, as the world will end anyway either as described in the Book of Revelations for a fancy end or by entropy for a boring one.

I don't think I'm convincing her.



Post Edited (04-27-05 15:47)

Linda, look at this logic - We have a judgement day in the form of exams only because we go to school and are tested to go to the next level. So, if there's a judgement day in life then it must only be to move to some higher level, otherwise, there would be no judgement day.

But why do we have to be tested and move to higher levels? And even if that be true, sure, but why don't I have conclusive evidence of it, why does God hide it? And like tests at school, we go through life being tested throughout too.

But life is not a school. In school, we give exams and if we don't pass, we don't die, but if there's a judgement day then some will perish. Therefore, since God is just, there cannot be a judgement day but we are judged all the way throughout. Individually when we die, that is where main judging happens, but no one dies, we just keep coming back but in a different form. We must all be eternal like God. It must be.

Collectively for all on earth, a judgement day cannot exist because it wouldn't be fair, besides, why would God wait for some specific time to announce judgement? You know what I get the distinct feeling that I don't know anything anymore. My mind is a blank.

And this is crazy, our changing this topic from Frost's, 'Fire and Ice' to God and Judgement day. I would take Frost's poem very lightly because that's what it is and it's really very beautiful.

What I'm saying is that, there must be eternal damnation and eternal life but it must happen individually and not collectively as some big Judgement Day. Life on earth could be eternal damnation, it's possible, and the way out is salvation.

I think the author may be referring to the end of the world or maybe death of some kind. He compares fire to desire and ice to hatred. I think maybe he is talking about life and how people live. Those who favor fire (desire) may be living life more passionately, embracing opportunities and seeking adventure. Those who favor ice (hatred) may be people who are resentful. The author prefers fire, but he is saying that everyone dies. Life ends for the passionate and the bitter. Life may become too frenzied in passion or so soiled with hate that we all loose focus, thus “ending the world.” At least, this is a possible interpretation of the poem, in my opinion.