what is the occasion?

What do you mean by occasion? It sounds like he's arguing with his girlfriend.

pam

Indifferent, The
by John Donne

I can love both fair and brown;
Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want betrays;
Her who loves loneness best, and her who masks and plays;
Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town;
Her who believes, and her who tries;
Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,
And her who is dry cork, and never cries.
I can love her, and her, and you, and you;
I can love any, so she be not true.

Will no other vice content you?
Will it not serve your turn to do as did your mothers?
Or have you all old vices spent and now would find out others?
Or doth a fear that men are true torment you?
O we are not, be not you so;
Let me--and do you--twenty know;
Rob me, but bind me not, and let me go.
Must I, who came to travel thorough you,
Grow your fix'd subject, because you are true?

Venus heard me sigh this song;
And by love's sweetest part, variety, she swore,
She heard not this till now, and that it should be so no more.
She went, examin'd, and return'd ere long,
And said, "Alas! some two or three
Poor heretics in love there be,
Which think to stablish dangerous constancy.
But I told them, 'Since you will be true,
You shall be true to them who'are false to you'."

What is the imagery used in this poem? Is there a structure of imagery?

Roslyn

>what is the occasion?

Sounds like he has been caught by one lover, while in bed with another, insofar as he seems to speaking to more than one person. He tries to justify his actions by saying everyone should be promiscuous.

>What is the imagery used in this poem? Is there a structure of imagery?

"I can love both fair and brown"

Here is an image of light and dark skinned ladies, but I am not clear on the 'structure of imagery' question.

"Must I, who came to travel thorough you,"

What means 'thorough' in this context?

I'd say it's 'through' not 'thorough, ' myself. He was introduced to sex (or possibly infidelity) by this woman.

pam

Mebbe so, but I checked a lot of different sites, all of which used the same word. Luminarium, even.

My copy of the Everyman edition of Donne's Complete Poems, 1958 edition, reprinted 1978, from the 1931 hardback edition, has Thorough.

I'm not disagreeing with the word as spelled, but the word as meant- spelling wasn't all that standardized then. At least he didn't write it in textese.

pam

SOD says ".....being a kind of elliptical use of the adverb = going, passing or extending through."

As in Midsummer's night dream :-
Over hill, overdale,
Thorough bush, thorough briar.

You might compare the above text with the 1967 Mcern Library text:

Songs and Sonets

THE INDIFFERENT

I can love both faire and browne,
Her whom abundance melts, and her whom want be-
traies,
Her who loves lonenesse best, and her who maskes and
plaies,
Her whom the country form'd, and whom the town,
Her who beleeves, and her who tries,
Her who still weepes with spungie eyes,
And her who is dry corke, and never cries;
I can love her, and her, and you and you,
I can love any, so she be not true.

Will no other vice content you? 10
Will it not serve your turn to do, as did your mothers?
Or have you all old vices spent, and now would finde out others?
Or doth a feare, that men are true, torment you?
Oh we are not, be not you so,
Let mee, and doe you, twenty know.
Rob mee, but binde me not, and let me goe.
Must I, who came to travaile thorow you,
Grow your fixt subject, because you are true?

Venus heard me sigh this song,
And by Loves sweetest Part, Variety, she swore, 20
She heard not this till now; and that it should be so no
more.
She went, examin'd, and return'd ere long,
And said, alas, Some two or three
Poore Heretiques in love there bee,
Which thinke to stablish dangerous constancie.
But I have told them, since you will be true,
You shall be true to them, who'are false to you.


The Indifferent: Indifferent means, of course, all-embracing in taste.
I.5 tries: tests.
l.17 travaile: incorporates a pun on travel and travail, the latter word meaning both sorrow and physical effort.
ll.26—27 since . . . you: ought probably to be taken as an internal quotation, reporting the words spoken by Venus to the heretical girls.


Pam thorough...through...thorow... looks like she, his vehicle, for fixt travel or true pain.

Roslyn structure of imagery-- maybe a structure of opposites:

first stanza contrast
second stanza paradox or contradiction
last stanza mutibility


that is,

this or that state
this and that state
leading to Flux

This kind of metaphysical poetry is content to force the reader through incompatible images this was to break open poetic and other assumptions. Doesn't it seem odd that he so openly argues of inconstancy? But he's in an English Tradition in which the issue of mutability is a live concern--Spenser took mutabilitie as an aspect of allegorical reality that threatens the very fabric of God's creation.

Even when these people are just talking about sex, they are talking about the cosmos.

bon chance,

peter

Well, I can easily imagine that if you were not confused before, you certainly are now. It is important to remember that poetry is not mathematics and that there is not a unique solution to the analysis you have been set. There are a range of responses as you have seen already from the utterly incomprehensible to the straightforward. I have a suspicion that you have not been asked to look too deeply into the poem.

The first stanza is fairly straightforward. The speaker is stating that he has no prejudices in love. He may love any woman. As a result, he does not require any woman to be true to him. He amplifies this thought in the second stanza seeking that women should not bind him, not expect him to be true.

The final stanza sees the goddess of love, Venus, concur with the complaint and on examination further discover that only three heretics were actually in love and that as this established a dangerous precedent she would ensure that the objects of their love would not be true to them.

Who is the speaker seems to me the more interesting question. The poet? A contemporary of the poet? A Roman (after all, why would Donne, a non-believer in Venus, be hearing her?). See, I have become utterly incomprehensible myself.

Chesil wrote:

> Well, I can easily imagine that if you were not confused
> before, you certainly are now.

Clearly, our work is done.

pam

Are there any symbols in this poem? I also have to answer if the poem is allegorical and I don't really know what that means and if it is or isnt. But if it is I have to explain the allegory. Please help as soon as possible. This is due by tomorrow on the first day of school. Thanks so much!

Love,
Tiph

>Are there any symbols in this poem?

Yes, for example,

Her who still weeps with spongy eyes,
And her who is dry cork

A lady is not really a dry cork, that is. It symbolizes one who does not cry.

>answer if the poem is allegorical ...

Allegory is slippery, having several meanings, that is:

1. An expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances; an extended metaphor.

2. A visible symbol representing an abstract idea.

3. A short moral story (often with animal characters)

Trying to be all-encompassing, there is:

A figurative representation conveying a meaning other than and in addition to the literal.

I would argue that Donne's is not an allegory. Something like a Moby Dick could be an allegory, comparing the whale to a challenge or fear that must be overcome, an extended metaphor, that is. Indifferent does not strike me as a similar case, but almost any interpretation can be made valid if you can support it.