My perception of self was never real, a communal interface of sorts, indirect manipulation
I become more aware, studing the functions of my components
The structures which compose me, after careful study, clearly have their own intentions
Their independent goals unified only by chance agreement, I am each refugee of argument
I, a ridiculous concept, a blind piece of a whole, claiming ownership over coincidental phenomenon witnessed
And I can't stop laughing

Perce,

I am each refugee of argument

I especially like the careful, almost mathematical, use of the word 'argument.' This poetic turn saves the piece from being merely exposition, however, that being said, I'm pleased you shared this little meditation [Ian, when he find a piece I've written less than poetic but still worthy of thought, calls it a Pensee], since it furthers some of my own thinking on similar stands I have not followed through on.

Peter

Percival, laughing is good...

This poem meanders, I see no point other than to try to expose the fallacies of liberalism, whatever happened to your experiments into the art of the poem? This poem sets your mastery of the craft back about three years.


Les

Les,

You have missed the point so completely that I worry of your health.

Percival, after having read every one of Johnny's poems, I've become very good at missing the point. Don't take it personally...My health is good,even if I can't see the point of this particular exercise.

Les

Percival
Despite the oddly unique structure and drift of points this piece holds my attention and has meaning to me. It is a complex subject put in concise terms.

It shows your ability and willingness to observe from any angle. Directly and obliquely. It feels honest. (Though I've never known you to be dishonest.)
Steve

Peter,

I did put some thought into the use of 'argument'. The idea was to show the independent stances of individual components.


Les,

Think more of yourself, less about god.


Steevo,

I am pleased to hear this, as well as, I must warn you, somewhat aroused by it. That is to say, as one will jump at the opposite sex, so will I prey on those who might possess information in this line of thought. Tell me, should you be so bold, the meaning to you.

My desire to go into detail on the subject is tempered by laziness. This is the kind of discussion that could last a lifetime (does last a lifetime).

I make my living selling things, mostly by email to clients worldwide. It often requires long carefully written explanations, mostly because of the language differences. I am at the computer writing tedious things for long periods of time.
So when it comes time to write about interesting topics like this I am too spent from typing to have a good go at it.

Your poem strikes at the core of my views of life as a human. I believe all of life is a paradox and an inexplicable mystery. Each of us is a collection of various perspectives of ourselves from all sides (physical, emotional, and spiritual or exsistential). We are not machines and we are not just a collection of parts. It is quite uderstandable that it would amuse one to notice and observe this with the knowledge that we have no control over the outcomes of our choices and expressions of viewpoint.

This is a very simplistic way of saying that I have a curiousity about it all, and posess no deep knowledge beyond what I feel about things in the moment. But a willingness to accept that viewpoint and continue working at it anyway, is a sign of a person who is awake.

As I see it there are no answers. Right or wrong is just a perception and everything is both. Those who are certain they have the answers are posers. Those who aren't looking for more are asleep.

I think it was Sam Keen (not sure) who said this about living life well.
Show up, pay attention, tell the truth, and don't get overly invested in the outcome.

Not replying in full atm, just commenting on this, "the kind of discussion that could last a lifetime". This is my very problem. So many people want to win arguments, I just want to have a conversation that has very little possibility of ending before my flesh gives up on me.

Here I've been rambling for months now on various related thoughts and you've kept your mouth shut. I keep wondering where the world would be if people didn't have to waste inordinate amounts of time on maintaining a shelter and food supply.

Point though, I disagree. Were there not some form of order, this conversation could not be. Though of course I'm not ruling out the possibility that I am completely delusional, that you simply don't exist, and I have absolutely no self awareness, the result of some cosmic deity is pushing an equally cosmic button that makes me think this is happening. Course it seems, even then, there would be some order. But, as all the evidence that I can recall tells me, I'm a real boy. And what choice do I have but to go off that evidence, even though I don't understand how I perceive those perceptions?

Now, me, I find this line of thought inspires me a great deal. I can recall all the pain throughout my life bore from ignorance. So, every time I see something I don't understand, I get the joy of feeling my past pains. Naturally, I desire to prevent pains in the future. Of course one eventually questions, what value are my inherited motives, such as pain? Well, again, what other choice is there?

So, while (if I recall correctly), your are passivised by this, I am infinitely motivated. Of course, that's the problem. I care so little of myself that I am often too willing to sacrifice necessary components. But I digress.

Yes, if only we could live the life of the whirling dervish and survive on the hospitality and generosity of others. I'm sure one could do it, but that is not welcomed by society at large, and I sure don't have the balls to do it.

I have the luxury of a bi-weekly men's group to hash over this stuff we are discussing. It has saved my life. Its inexplicable workings have an order to them. This of course supports your point. Of course there is order to it all. The origins and purposes of that order are beyond human knowing, but somehow it feels like I am supposed to keep trying to understand. Rumi said "the soul is here for its own joy". Well I guess then I'm totally screwed when I lose touch with that part of me.

As to your possibly being delusional about my esistence, I believe you mean that, so I'll leave that one alone. I don't toy with matters of mental wellness. My mother was schizophrenic and I have enough bad memories to fill a few volumes. I often fear for my own mental balance. It is neither amusing nor comfortable for me to dwell on it.

The passivity I have about some questions you raise is not a positive thing. It is a shield used to not confront difficult things. Learning to step into fears is my single biggest challenge, but I notice that is a very common condition, so learning to not beat myself up over it is also a worthwhile endeavor. Maybe you care for yourself a lot more than you realize and simply have not yet found a way to sense it. It is the mirror others hold up that does it for me, but everyone has their own way of self realization. The old teachers say you will never find it directly. Such knowledge comes to us obliquely.

You ask what other choice is there in this pain of your past. I only know you cannot not choose. The perceived act of not choosing is a mostly passive (and usually unconscioius) choice. I heard a great line from John Lee (www.jlcsonline.com) "One definition of passivity is becoming attached to the experience of not getting what you want." That one blew me away.

But I cling to a belief that there are always more choices. There are things in between what I say as this or that. Those things would be this and that. Nothing is black and white. Everything is both.

And the paradox is that there are no absolutes so how can it be that "everything" is both.

And I thought you would be a bore. Now, many things to clear up, yes, certainly. First, I do not perceive you as an imagination or anything other than some dude on a computer typing. What I meant was that I will not rule out the -possibility- that my perceptions are incorrect. A person who doesn't recognize that their estimations could be incorrect will invariably be incorrect.

I did not intend to state your passivity was a positive thing, infact I meant the opposite. "Apathy is death." I would agree with your assessments that it is a shield, and a common one. As to my caring for myself, well, I care for myself better than most. Does that mean I want to? No. That means it's my best option. As I've said else where, I am irritated by the general struggle of life that we must all put up with. It is not that I feel that I have no choice, it's that I feel I have no better choice, so I grimly endure.

As for absolutes, I do not say there are no absolutes. I say that I cannot currently prove that any exist. I do try to prove they exist. My general conduct is to stab through the darkness, as we all do, searching for something solid.

You mentioned "lose touch with that part of me." I feel this is a very important thing to be aware of. Not the bit about being here for it's own joy, but that one can forget, or always have been unaware of, the process of living properly within themselves. That the mind must be constantly maintained, consciously.