I wish I could get warm from inside out
Sooth and restore by blowing candles on a cake
I wish that for a day I would be Kira Argounova
and Bronte, and Anne Frank and then
A Rivky or a Rachel, or any some such girl
-home on a village, raised on tradition
Eyes still, secure and wide,
Swallowing the world.
Wish I could seal life within my heart

*don't know if anyone has read We The Living by Ayn Rand, Kira Argounova is one of the main characters of that novel.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 09:16PM by mg.

I've managed to avoid reading Ayn Rand since I read "The Virtue of Selfishness" in 1964 or so, but I am always delighted to read mg here in the 'real' world. Cheers, glad to see you,

Peter

Thank you Peter. That was very nice of you to say.

We The Living is the first and only book I've read by Ayn Rand. I loved it. I practically lived in it while reading it. It left me sad. 1964, you say. What was 1964 like? I was born in 84. We The Living began in 1917. I wish I knew or could know time before 'this' time.

That is what research, the imagination and other people are for...so that we may explore the time before our own time. 1964, when I was 19, was still a time when the future was possible, when here could still be almost anywhere, and, for me at least, there were still dozens more people to be in this lifetime.

hmm... i like your description. You said "was still a time..." how would you describe our present time? (I'm sorry, i'm in a curious mood, but you of course are not obligated to answer)
-Yes, research, imagination and people... you're right. Still, its unsatisfying. I want to have been, I guess but then I'm silly. I should be content with this time. I don't know what i'm asking for

You need never be content. Back when I was a philosopher, one of my teachers taught us that the defining quality of philosophy was human curiosity. Saul Alinsky. on the other hand, seems to suggest that one must never be satisfied if one is to be effective in the practical politics of changing the world. The poet, William Carlos Williams, speaks contemptuously of those whose "minds are like beds / always made up."

As to knowing what other times are like, the most common reason for that, besides curiosity, is to learn how to live in the present. Personally, I think that is the more difficult task: to learn what the present is like, beyond curiosity, but in actual practice.

Sorry, mg, I am babbling. Among the subjects I majored in in undergraduate school were history and cultural anthropology, ... I am rambling now, so I'll stop.

Watch our for drivers fixated on their rear-view mirrors.

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 12:30PM by petersz.

I tend to ramble myself. I don't mind it, I'm interested. Thank you for taking the time.

"As to knowing what other times are like, the most common reason for that, besides curiosity, is to learn how to live in the present. Personally, I think that is the more difficult task: to learn what the present is like, beyond curiosity, but in actual practice."

You are right. I didn't connect the two myself, should have I guess. It is difficult to know the times and live in the present. To go on and stay alive is fairly easy. There's enough food and water and lungs inflate and deflate involuntarily, but living - actual living, i think must be at least a little different than drifting along.

Glad to hear contentment is unnecessary. When I try to put it on, it feels awfully unnatural.

mg

Pete, you'll be amazed to find out that Ms. Rand is one of my very favorite authors.

Love the line, "I swear by my life and my love it it that I shall never live one moment of my life solely for the sake of another human being, and by that same love of life, I shall never allow another to live one moment of their lives solely for my sake"

Merc - have you read We the Living? what about Atlas Shrugged, I think thats the one i'm reading next.

Have read We the Living, and the line quoted above is from Atlas Shrugged. I reread it every two years. I have a love affair with Dagny Taggart.

Also, somewhere else recently I was singing praises of Ragnar Daanskjold. Another character of Atlas Shrugged. Read it.. agree, disagree, or puke.

alright, will gladly start once Amazon delivers it. Did you agree with her philosophies? I actually shouldn't talk just yet, because I've only read one book by her but she was very explicit about her ideas.

She is very explicit, and I do agree completely EXCEPT!!!! She sees no reason for anything but work. I disagree with that.

My time off is more important to me than any money I may make while working. Having said that, I will NOT take anything from the government, not even social security. I have made enough in my lifetime to support me and my wife for about another two hundred years without any further income. Obama be dammed, my economy is just fine, BECAUSE I have taken care of myself all my life and allowed no one else to do it for me.

I don't know where I stand with Ms. Rand yet (having read so little) but it is so refreshing to hear you. I'm not really supporting myself yet (my parents are helping me through graduate school) but I disagree with Obama's mentality.
I think that the majority of well meaning social aid programs are more of a stumbling block than anything else. They create and breed dependency which leads to an overly powerful state (vs. the people).

If you are in grad school, you are supporting yourself properly at this time. Anything you can do to improve yourself is self supporting. When you graduate, you will not need big brother to spoonfeed you your daily bread.

Well doing and well done.

Social programs are a great stumbling block.
We (the white eyes) overcame the Apache, LaKota, et al on the field of battle, but we defeated them by giving them food. Not enough to make them strong, just enough to make them dependent. Then we opened liquor stores on the res's. Total victory. Only justice since then is the casinos which take the white man's money at an alarming rate, and the fact that the worthless land in Oklahoma we herded them to was floating on seas of oil. The indian is still dependent on the Great White Father in Washington. errrr aaahhhh,,, well we'll leave race out of it..
I live very close to the Mescalero Apache res. Not suggested that you drive through there at night.... not due to any violent crime rate, that is very low... but for the drunk driving rate. We won. The once proud Apache is nearly completely dependent on the white eyes social programs. The only victorious indians are the ones who died on the field of battle.

When the number of destitute reaches a certain point, criminal organizations form. They sow chaos, creating more of their kind. How many of those criminals do you think were born with the mind to be criminals? How many are merely desperate fools born to unfortunate circumstance? Our society may be good, but it's not good enough to prevent many horrible things from happening with. Social aid programs may not be as obvious about preventing crime, but I assure they are extremely important. Teach a man to fish.

As to Obama, the face that man wears is all I need to know about him. Patient endurance.

Mr. P - that's the thing though, I don't think the social aid programs "teach a man to fish" ( if I correctly understand what you are saying). I think they imprison men and I think they make men dependent, at worst - they make them less then men.

As to Obama, the face is not always revelatory of character. I will have to see him actually do something before I say he's done something. The push for egalitarianism, however is discouraging.

Merc- thank you.

It is sad. There are so many ways to distract people, make them obedient and place them underfoot. They won't know how they got there, and some won't know they're there. .

A novelist is a person who tells storys that are not true for a living. An actor is a person who acts storys that are not true for a living. An actor is a person who at a professional level pretends to be something they are not.
Any first year acting student can adopt a pose of patience.

The grizzly bear is huge and wild
It has devoured the innocent child
The infant child is unaware
It was eaten by the bear.

The number of destitute in our recent history was probably at it's zenith during the Hoover initiated, Roosevelt prolonged "great depression" Crime was rampant in the streets, if you believe Hollywood. Name all the really big crime guys,, Dillinger, Sutton, Karpis, Floyd, Kelly,,, but now name all the people who didn't commit crimes due to despration. That will take a while. Social programs give the man the fish, they don't teach him to fish, nor anything else, except to depend on others.

A story is told of a man out in the wilderness. He was out of food and the rabbit trap did not work. He cut off his dog's tail and made a stew. He then fed the bones of the tail to the dog, who licked his master's hand in gratitude.
When Obama sends me a pitence, do not expect me to lick his hand.

Well said Merc. I know very few people who think as you do on the matter.

Let me tell you a true story. I was raised by druggies and lunatics. As a boy, too weak to change my circumstances, I was tormented by these people. A hatred grew in me more fierce than I've seen else where. This because, from my perspective then, the entire world was against me. Death was a likelihood. Everything seemed bent against me, everything and everyone. You two, religious, most likely raised by foolish weaklings, pathetic shades of what humans are capable of, are unlikely to imagine what that can do to a person so young. I was raised by all that potential turned to the worse we can become, raving.

The strength I today possess is due to that hatred. I am fast, hard, and thorough. But a part of me still remembers when everything, the whole world it seemed, was for my throat. And so, when things get real bad, I am completely merciless, without any concern for anything but myself. And that part of me, that needed to survive the worse of circumstances, loves to watch the destruction of everything outside of myself. You think I'm smart now? I have myself on a leash, keeping those thoughts, the source and drive of my strength, in check. I'll kill myself before I become the people that made me.

I would have given anything for someone to come in and take me out. Luckily, someone did, which I am certain saved me from becoming a terror incapable of being born in the environment of your childhoods.

Mr. P, I'm sorry that you had such parents and the beginning that you describe. That means nothing of course because I was in no way responsible... still sad circumstances. That being said, it seems strange that such an intelligent man would characterize people so simply. I've met, heard of and know people who are not drug addicts (though some were) but are not fools or weaklings or shades of humanity. Also, I'm sure you know that suffering exists on many levels and has no difficulty crossing social boundaries. It seems you have a narrow definition of mankind.

Perhaps this is too personal but if you don't mind - that someone that took you out, was it a human? or was it a foodstamp- The State?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2009 05:01AM by mg.

Merc,

Actually I did know that because I have read your posts.

Believe it or not, I don't require everyone I respect to agree with me on who the fools are and who the Sophias. Still, you do irritate me sometimes. But I am not the one responsible for educating you. You are. Much that you say to Perce is just annoying, but he needs to be the one to defend himself. Still, I am a violent man who has lived a life of peace. And I have found my faith in other people repaid again and again. Strangers have been the most reliable in many situations, so that faith is not blind, but the result of the practice of the world. Each of us lives in the widest world possible, which is why there is room for such difference of opinion. Government is just government...which means it magnifies the follies of those who run it and serve in it. Yet, yet, I would have died without the government stepping in when I was in my twenties, and I nearly died when they had me in solitary confinement for months when I was young. So it is a two edged sword, and it is up to every person to use his or her own judgment when dealing with the government. But you already know that.

Stay healthy, I would miss you if you were not around to mislead our younger compatriots.

Peter

p.s. Forgive my rambling. I spent the day with the only grownup I really know today. She made sure I act like a grownup around her, as usual.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2009 04:38AM by petersz.

A person, but don't take my dramatics too seriously, merely allowing some of the idiocy within me to show itself. My point was there are infact many reasons for those social programs. Are they flawed? Of course. Doesn't mean they should be discarded.

Peter, thank you for stepping in. Balance. Balance is good.
hm. could it be that there are more than two answers. Maybe we need the gov. but in a different form? It seems that need is created. That so called aid often traps. I wouldn't have a problem with gov. relief if what it did was place people on their feet and get out of their lives.
My parents were on welfare when we moved to the US. I was eight. As soon as my father got a job they cut us off. We did need it for that first yr. I don't know what they would have done without it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2009 05:08AM by mg.

Mr. P, okay. flawed -- yes. Necessary? I guess for now. I don't think they're the right way. Like fixing the problem without really fixing it, just soothing it, pouring wine on the masses. I don't know. I have no answers.

I'm familiar with your opinion, but are you? What, dear friend, would you suggest as a solution?

I dont' really know yet. I haven't thought it through and I'm afraid I don't know enough. I'm sure there are more than two options. I'm sure there are minds far greater than mine that can see a bigger picture.

man! is it 429am wherever you are? i'm going to catch a few hrs of sleep. g'night.

Increasingly, I find there is only one way to live and act once one has chosen to live, but that's all theory, and another conversation.


Peter, I laugh at the thought of requiring defense in these matters.

OK Urine, now you've gotten personal. My mother was religious yes. That weak bumbling low Darwinian excuse for a human being that tried so poorly to be my father took home a silver star for action above and beyond the call of duty at Bastone. He was an honest, hard working, loving, man that you would thank God just to know. You could never in your wildest narcissictic dreams hope to become the sweat from his brow. He turned a sixth grade education into a very successful cattle operation, and selling that made a grand success as a Chevron distributor. He died a happy man that he had raised four good kids out of five. His view, not mine. I have never considered myself as a good person. (The fifth was a drug crazed lunatic as you describe one of your parental units). By the by, at seventeen I was given a disiplinary expellation from school, and a choice between military service and slam up time. I was quite aged, and had my own bank account when my parents died. I took the inheiritance and donated it to my three favorite charities, of which one is the Salvation Army, which spends most of their funds feeding folks like you describe your parents. So, all I took from them was a work ethic, a strong sense of right and wrong, and a real sense of honesty. If I ever measure up to them, I will be a success.

No, I don't think you are smart now. I think you are a egocentric slug.So horribly sorry for himself that none of us better dare to question your actions or opinions. Barely capable of survival because of emotional bruses which you cannot overcome, either because of your lack of power, or desire. I think you spend too much time being the top of the heap to understand how high the heap really is. The strength you possess now would wilt in the presence of real strength like my father possessed. As for you comment to Peter, you are incapable of being defended, by yourself or others. You have become persona non viva.

Peter,
I was pretty sure you would have a handle on my opinion of Ms. Rand. I, like you do not require agreement for respect. In fact, reach into history and several people who (whom, I'm not sure) I hold in very high regard are not people who would have sat at tea, most likely. Rommel, Mozart, Ghandi, Leni Netanyahu, Audie Murphy, Patton, Jack, Mitts, yourself. Col. Bernie Fisher, my dad.

I know you sought peace due to an abundance of violence, and in some small way have made your corner of the universe a much better place to live because of it.
I sought to eliminate the evil in the world, but wasn't willing to take the time for it to see the light. Right, wrong... we each probably think the other is a bit loose in the cranial area. That's OK. I like Mr. Lecther's line, "You have nothing to fear from me, the world is much more interesting with you in it". If I am irritating you, then I am doing as I should. I also find your opinions irritating, if not you yourself. I would argue, of course, that it is you who needs the worldly education. Ergo, we are going to disagree oft. However, if I were every silly enough to be in SFO, I would give you a ride to the polls. As for what I say to Urine, doesn't annoy me in the slightest. However, don't get your reading glasses out to peruse much more of that after his last comment, there will be an extreme lack of conversation 'twixt the pair of us.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2009 11:07AM by Merc.

Perhaps I am as you say. And how would this support my argument? Well, the instincts forged in me, before I was capable of controlling myself, let alone the world around me, made me this way. Were a system in place to prevent the things which forged me to occur, I certainly wouldn't be this way, would I? So yes, I acted foolishly, but my point is proven. My theory supported by the evidence of this moment.

As to your judgments of me, they are wrong. I see the person you depict and am amazed that you would judge me so simple after seeing my opinions on various things. I imagine you see me this way because, and this will really reinforce your opinion, I am beyond you. You were raised properly, I was not. You were nurtured, I was broken. All the things which compose your mind, you take them for granted, you aren't even aware of their operation, so things like faith are possible in you. I, on the other hand, didn't have the luxury of sanity, I crawled my way up to where I am now. On the way I found a few things of priceless value, and thus I perceive myself as immensely intelligent. Maybe you're right, prove it. Or have you spent too little time thinking of such things? Too much time acting, perhaps?

"If there was no death there would be no God" Ayn Rand quote that banished her from modern, born-again conservatives. Silly politicos.

Now, now. Such good and righteous people would never do such things. I would never use sarcasm.

Funny how life is. People are always religious. There was a day when the conservatives banished the liberals -- for their religion, now the liberals banish the conservatives -- for their religion.

... that being said., I can't agree with Ayn Rand entirely but what she said- she said well. At least from the little I've read she was clear, strong and honest. Great read.

I like to hope I'm cosmopolitan enough not to bash on the religious. Rather, the people I do bash just tend to be religious.