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-untitled protest poem-
Posted by: G47 (137.220.40.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 08:39PM

The cowboy is busy with his marlboro lights
The pilgrim sighs "so it goes" dies, is born and cries
Our children in pieces, our peoples on leashes
Our lands on leases, our egos on loan
Hey believer, wheres your diplomat?
Does Superman not cover our part of the map?
Hey Bob Dylan where are you at?
Drowning in apathy, peace is gone.
Sheltered ember from falling rain
Celestial gifts drop making light, sound and heat
"Don't worry no one died, at least no one from our champion side
Who cares about law, humaneness and pride
Rain on their black parade, no wait I lied
We killed their children guiltless and free
But whose going to catch us?
Not they, not them, not we."





Dedicated to the people of Gaza.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:30PM

Let me ask you a question. Let's say for the moment you have dogs. Mean, nasty dogs. They're like this because you, as the owner, have been unaware as how to properly feed and nurture them so as to make amiable things. These dogs, your dogs, get loose. Naturally, being ill tempered, they cause problems for your neighbors. Digging up their lawns, pooping on them, chasing people around, all that. Naturally, your neighbors are angry, and demand some sort of payment for the damages done and assurance that it won't happen again. What do you do?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:34PM

MOVE


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:36PM

New neighbors, same question.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:40PM

Well, the obvious answer would be to mend my ways and raise or retrain the dogs correctly and make amends for damage done, but it's already been established that I am an irresponsible owner who is unlikely to do so.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:43PM

Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe you're just horrible with dogs?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:45PM

Good homes should then be found for them and I should not be allowed to have dogs then


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:46PM

Ah, but what if your measure as a human being is the number and health of the dogs you possess?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:49PM

So the assumption is I'd get more dogs anyway in defiance of any restraining order?

I'm assuming that this person has kept them in good physical if not mental health?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:53PM

Over time, no matter the original condition of these dogs, your lack of ability in training results in feral beasts.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:55PM

Ultimately, I'd be thrown in jail for violations if that were the case


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:56PM

I'll talk more later, have to run for now


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 09:57PM

Indeed you would. Now the real question, all this having transpired, your being warned of these problems coming, why didn't you learn to train the dogs?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 11:12PM

Denial of the issues involves --that is what all this talk about dogs instead of humans is.

I do not live in the Middle East. A cop here shot a black man in the back -- a man who was lying face down on a train platform. The only reason that is news is that it was filmed by people on the train going by and shown on national news.

It is not news that people die for no reason or for the wrong reasons or that other people, even 'good' people feel justified in killing other people. It is not news...but it has to be opposed everywhere, every time. Talk about history has to be opposed by talk about changing our lives. Rilke said that. Change your life.

Guess what? People change their lives every day...but not by changing the subject, talking about dogs instead of human deaths.

Yes, I don't understand.

Thanks for posting this poem, G47. It doesn't matter if it is not particular strong this time. This time what matters is each and every person who dies tonight.

shalom, salaam,

Peter


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 11:40PM

Peter, we are not changing the subject, we are using analogy to logically define the parameters and potential answers

I use this technique on an almost-daily basis at work to prove or disprove if a particular line of thinking bears up under scrutiny


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 11:49PM

You silly bastard Peter, of course we're not talking about dogs.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: G47 (209.166.106.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:11AM

thanks peter... i think...

and to answer your question Mr.P, i would do nothing because my "dog" is protecting my children from my neighbor`s tigers.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:13AM

Is that so? And why, do you presume, your neighbor keeps tigers? A rather dangerous occupation, I would imagine.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: G47 (209.166.106.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:15AM

because my neighbor is squating on land that isnt his, he uses his tigers to keep the real owners away.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:22AM

I see, I see. So, can you tell me the prices of this struggle?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: G47 (209.166.106.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:24AM

too many human lives, homes and liberties.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:29AM

Too many indeed. Now, what are the benefits?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:31AM

I know what analogy is. I also know what people tell themselves it's purpose is. But it is easier to talk about something that is like a difficult situation instead of talking about the situation itself...but you know that already. That is why some people talk about passing instead of talking about death. It anesthetizes the subject. Human beings are being killed deliberately in Gaza and Israel. Talking about that by talking about dogs and tigers is averting your eyes and avoiding responsibility for the consequences of what you say.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:34AM

Oh, would you rather I run the risk of offending people in a highly delicate situation, dear friend Peter?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:35AM

eyup.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:40AM

Ah, so you want people dead then, I assume. For many are those who act foolishly under the influence of powerful emotions. One of those many emotions being hatred.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:43AM

ok...if you can't listen to what I actually say, it is best that I go do something that is not a waste of my time...like read the local news:

BART Police Shoot and Kill Man at Fruitvale BART Station
In the early hours of January 1st, BART police shot and killed a 22 year old man, Oscar Grant, on the platform of the Fruitvale BART station in Oakland. Witnesses report that Grant was "lying on his stomach with his hands out in a non-threatening position when he was shot". Police have confirmed Grant was unarmed and have suggested the shooting was an accident. Grant lived in Hayward and leaves behind a 4-year-old daughter.

There will be a rally to protest the shooting from 3pm till 8pm on Wednesday January 7th at the Fruitvale BART station in Oakland.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2021 12:46AM by petersz.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:51AM

I'm saving this, and leaving it here. That way, when you cool down, I'll get to say I told you so.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 05:43PM

ok...if you can't listen to what I actually say, it is best that I go do something that is not a waste of my time...like read the local news:

BART Police Shoot and Kill Man at Fruitvale BART Station
In the early hours of January 1st, BART police shot and killed a 22 year old man, Oscar Grant, on the platform of the Fruitvale BART station in Oakland. Witnesses report that Grant was "lying on his stomach with his hands out in a non-threatening position when he was shot". Police have confirmed Grant was unarmed and have suggested the shooting was an accident. Grant lived in Hayward and leaves behind a 4-year-old daughter.

There will be a rally to protest the shooting from 3pm till 8pm on Wednesday January 7th at the Fruitvale BART station in Oakland.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2022 05:46PM by petersz.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 12:52AM

Original post follows:


Re: -untitled protest poem- new
Posted by: petersz (69.181.22.---)
Date: January 06, 2022 05:43PM

ok...if you can't listen to what I actually say, it is best that I go do something that is not a waste of my time.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 04:36PM

Interesting poem. I appreciate how it includes references to popular culture and yet remains true to its goal. It is a different approach to the issue at ahnd, and makes it much more real for people who can't relate by bringing in something they can relate to. I like it a lot.

On another note, dogs? Honestly, we are discussing human beings and tragic situations. I agree with Peter. The very reference to them as dogs is insulting not only to them but to the person who referred to them as such, as well.

In a place of innovation, expression and creation i.e. this poetry forum, I don't believe we can insult each other. We learn from each other, about each other and express our opinion. Being honest and blunt is not an insult, it is a gift, because people are rarely honest and when they are they enable one to be honest to themselves and others and thus learn, grow, mature ... etc.

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: lifeisbutadream (79.173.255.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 04:57PM

Effort appreciated, G47, although I might disagree with you on a point or two.

Peter and Startle, I too agree that open discussion that is characterized by respect and openmindedness is more fruitful than implications that can be hurtful.

Johnny, I am quite surprized by your stance, if I may honestly say so. If somebody knocks on your door and forces you out of your house to take it over, would you say,"please allow me to gather my things and leave?" NEvertheless, I can still understand the prevalent paradigms that will make you think so and make me think differently.
It is not my intention to change your mind on this matter; however, I would expect poets like you to have more empathy, whatever your choice of who to empathize with is.

Be well, all!


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:06PM

Indeed, truth above all else. But truth, to those who unwittingly pursue falsehood, is the most dire insult worthy of murder. And those who jump to conclusions tend to be that very kind of person. Prove that Johnny and I are attempting insult.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:17PM

KQ, all I am saying is that if I, personally, were in a war-torn or famine-ridden situation, I'd make every effort to get the hell out of there.

Much like my Irish ancestors were forced to do.

I do not support the aktions of the Israeli government (comparable to the "aktions" of the Nazis), nor do I approve of the extremism of the Philistines either


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:19PM

You in 'Miracle Man' have stated that we have evolved from being animals. Thus animals are lesser beings, by likening humans and their situation to dogs as you have done, is indeed an attempt to insult, by your standards as well as my own.

Secondly, hiding behind images and symbols is the most direct pursue of falsehood, where you attempt to make something less or more than it is, not in complete truth. Food for thought and self-reflection.

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: JohnnyBoy (24.189.156.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:24PM

What does not seem to be realized here is one of the potential outcomes of My/Mr p's discussion........once we've determined what someone would do if dogs were involved, at some point, then someone would say.....well, if you wouldn't treat dogs that way, then why are you treating humans that way.

No insult is intended . We're having a logical q&A is all


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:30PM

I am saddened that we have not reached that point where treating dogs is compared to treating humans in the way you have stated.

However, I am also glad that we haven't and have a certain skepticism about whether we would have reached that point or not.

Of course, there is no ill intent, but the insult as an insult regardless of whom it came from remains.

Thanks for your clarification.

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:35PM

Startle,

Ah, so, that Johnny and I do not see it as insult doesn't matter? Only your view? But that sort of reasoning leads directly to war.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: lifeisbutadream (79.173.255.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:40PM

Johnny,
I too share with you a disaproval for extremism, whatever party it may come from. However, I can afford to say that from the luxury of where I stand, as a second hand experience.

Be well.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:43PM

It matters that you do not see it as an insult, where it contributed to further thought on this. It perhaps reflects a misunderstanding on the definition of an insult. As stated before, you have decreed animals as lesser beings and so by referring to humans as such it is an insult, in the sense that you liken them to lesser beings.

By your own words, it is an insult. And wouldn't an insult only be one if considered that by those on the receiving end? Just for clarification.

Also, it is this clash of opinions and views which promote further thought and thus evolution and takes us as far from war as is possible as long as both sides are amicable in their search for an ultimate and comprehensive truth.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 05:54PM

Ah, but I never said I didn't see the possibility of it being interpreted as insult. What I said is that I did not intend is as one. As to what an insult is, well, I feel that something can only be insult if intended. Otherwise, everyone might feel justified in taking violent action at any number of things someone might say for any reason. For example, I could, theoretically, be insulted by your name. Why? Well, why would why matter, if an insult is only determined by how I, alone, perceive things?

As to our conversations leading away from war, I perceive as partially true. I would agree that our intentions in this discussion are that of understanding and peace, but someone with any sort of beliefs could be direly insulted, unknowingly to us, and consider that reason enough to start a fight.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:01PM

See this is where civilised action takes place. You are insulted by my name, some justification is required. That does not change the fact that it is your perception which led to the insult. It only aims to clarify it, and perhaps aid me in not insulting you further.

Civilised quest for understanding. People with beliefs do not go into fights unwarranted, and would probably have some semblance of control. It goes back to the method of communication. How do you reach out and interact with the person opposite you?

Also, I agree and have stated previously that no ill intent has been meant by what you said. Perhaps this makes your analogy no longer an insult in your opinion. To me , it still is. It does not result in any negative judgement of any sort. I am merely stating my opinion and asked a question. Be wary of those basic human traits you spoke of earlier.

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:21PM

You remind me of an old friend, Adi. A very bright girl, perhaps even brighter than me, but she had a problem which has been the downfall of many great people. You see, being as smart as she was, and likely still is, she rarely encountered things which challenged her. This fostered a pride in her which she was unaware of, a being used to success. How she I now, I do not know, but I imagine, if it hasn't happened already, she will soon suffer greatly, as she will attempt to conquer things she cannot, and pay terrible prices when she finally does fail.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:31PM

Why do you insist on jumping to conclusions that have no basis in reality? Or has this conversation led you astray to a conclusion which has no basis in reality?

One thing though. Suffering to reach new heights is the mark of great people and good, healthy change. Isn't that what Martin Luther King did? What Obama has done and will hopefully do? What Joan D'Arc did? Etc.

I agree though, pride in great, unchallenged proportions is fatal.

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:32PM

Indeed it is. So, what are you trying to prove?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:33PM

Thanks for the thought though. I also hope your remembrance has helped you as well.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:36PM

It goes back to my original point. War is brutal. What is happening in Gaza is awful, and should be stopped. By discussing it here we have hopefully reached new heights of understanding, and a more comprehensive manner of thinking. I know I did.

Perhaps this is not what you meant by your question, but it is the point I am attempting to prove.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:36PM

Indeed, I miss her company. I've often hoped she would come here, to the mule, and settle down permanently, or at least visit regularly, so I might know how she is, and not have to worry about her getting herself into trouble.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:42PM

Off topic. Reminded me that people understand things differently.


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:48PM

Indeed, but indulge me. All this serious talk is taxing, let's discuss things of less importance for awhile, take a break. So, Startle, do you enjoy fishing? I'm quite sure I could die a happy man if I were to live the days between now and my death fishing. Of course I would prefer to be in the tropics while doing so, but I suspect I would be happy in any climate in which I could sustain myself through fishing.

Are you familiar with the term, "Fisher King", which refers to a philosopher? I've always wondered what this meant, and after giving it some thought, I theorized that the term was coined due to fishing being a very inactive event, one where in a person has little else to do but think. Does that sound like something you would enjoy, that sort of life? Or do you enjoy keeping yourself busy instead of taking things slow?


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: ElementaryStartle (79.173.202.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 06:57PM

Taxing means challenging. Challenging means progressing. I rather enjoy that. Thinking is enjoyable always. Doing it while fishing ... well, I have my doubts.

I must retire now, more urgent things to do (not more important, as I said thinking is enjoyable, discussions on things that make one think are even more so. Just some little off topic insight.)

Startle


Re: -untitled protest poem-
Posted by: Mr. P (75.111.63.---)
Date: January 07, 2022 07:00PM

Well, as I would welcome my old friend Adi with welcome arms, so too will I welcome you upon your return. Then perhaps we can discuss such things as marriage, and other such pleasant things in life, before attending to more serious matters.




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