To find all faith and reason
In the patterns of a leaf
And lose them both again
In the sweetness of a kiss

To surrender to the falling
In the permanence of a loss
And to stand on firm ground
Looking backward and forward

And
Just up
And to catch a falling leaf again

Life is an unfolding epiphany

Good one, Aaron, welcome to e-mule.

Les

Welcome to the mule.

Bienvenidos.

I like this a lot!

K.Q.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2022 07:02AM by lifeisbutadream.

I too like this a lot, Aaron. I hope this isn't just a random fly by posting as there's go to be more where this came from and I'd love to see it. With that said, I'll confess that I find something about the last part that either detracts or distracts from the richness of the first two stanzas.

And
Just up
And to catch a falling leaf again

Life is an unfolding epiphany

I'm not sure if it's just the formatting or the words themselves. In any event, I wonder if the very last line is even necessary?

Great piece overall, though, Aaron. Welcome to e-mule.

Mary

Thank you all for the welcomes. I have been reading all of your words for a few years and have begun trying a write a bit on my own. I fear, however, that the relationship I have with all of you will continue to be asymmetrical, as I will not be able to offer you all what you have me over the past two years.

None-the-less I will post when I have something to say.

Mary, thank you for sharing your thoughts, I find you to be very wise. My intention there towards to end was to somehow show that an epiphany was taking place at that moment (looking a something ordinary in a new way followed by a pause followed by an oh-shit moment). But I struggled to figure out how to convey that. Any ideas?

Cheers

Aaron, you have offered much in the posting of just one poem and don't doubt for one second that any contribution you might make to e-mule, either posting poetry or joining discussion, wouldn't be equal to anything you've read here (for two years?wow) silently.

My comments about the ending of your poem are only based on what feels natural to me when writing (thus reading), so please take it with a grain of salt. Your poem is effective and clearly stated as written. It's just that I think the epiphany is evident and speaks loudly without being stated (this coming from someone who usually states everything too clearly...objectivity is much easier from a distance). Starting two of the three short lines with "And" also feels problematic to me.

To find all faith and reason
In the patterns of a leaf
And lose them both again
In the sweetness of a kiss

To surrender to the falling
In the permanence of a loss
And to stand on firm ground
Looking backward and forward

And
Upward
To catch a falling leaf again

or

Then in a moment
Upward
To catch a falling leaf again
And the unfolding epiphany

I don't know, Aaron, it's really fine the way it stands because it's coming from you and you wrote it that way. Better to leave well enough alone. I appreciate the compliment, but I'm not wise at all, just old.

Mary

epiphany unfolding seems to have a better flow

Aaron:

I'm glad you posted your poem. Welcome. I also like what you've done. The poem has attracted a lot of good comments and advice.

Epiphany unfolding or unfolding epiphany (potato or po tah to). Either way it sounds like one word too many. Almost a redundancy. I am one who nearly always uses too many words so I would notice such a thing when I see it.

If an epiphany is an oh-shit moment (which I happen to think is a good definition) then would it unfold,or would it just be....an epiphany?

Tablecloths and roses I have seen unfold.

Steve

Thank you Mary, JohnnyBoy, and Steve for your ideas. They have already helped me understand my own work better. I am glad I posted.

Steve, as far as the word unfolding goes, it is the closest (but not the right one) I can come up with to describe what I have come to believe is the nature of life: experiences showing us that what we used to be so sure of is only part of the big picture. Perhaps these moments are epiphanies. I also tried (in vain) to hint at a cyclical nature to life as well, in that all of these epiphanies are simply an unfolding toward one big moment of realization that that may happen in this life or not. Maybe the clues to truly understanding who we are and why we are here etc. are partially there in what we have all been through.

I hoped to show a progression, but a progression toward understanding better our past. Finding faith and reason again after knowing love and loss and hard choice is grounds for a better or more full sense of the balance between faith and reason.

I posted this poem in particular because I think it is interesting and has promise, but, in the words of Paul Simon, seems to “tear and strain”. Thank you for your ideas thus far, and would certainly welcome and appreciate more.

p.S. Have you all found that when posting you first need to log out and then back in, and if you don't you will lose everything you have written?

no. logging in has been sufficient for me, Aaron.

Depends on how long you've been inactive while logged in before posting.

I've had times when I tried to post, lost what was written, and had to log in again. Mr. P has the logical explanation. Too much time passed.

When in doubt I just copy what was writtten before hitting the post message button. Then if it doesn't go, I can paste it after logging in.

What Steevo said, get in the habit of copying before hitting "post message"

Aaron:

I see I'm late to the task, but please accept my welcome to emule, as well.

Your poem is rich in imagery, especially in the opening four lines. The sudden change in format after the second verse, however, did strike me as awkward, as it did Mary and Steevo.

As to your use of the word, epiphany, I believe an epiphany is a sudden, spur-of-the moment manifestation or realization; consequently, I can't see it as ever "unfolding." Since the opening two stanzas do a very nice job of describing this speaker's particular epiphany, you may want to consider re-titling the poem as, "Epiphany," omitting the last couple of lines entirely. Example:

To find all faith and reason
In the patterns of a leaf
And lose them both again
In the sweetness of a kiss

To surrender to the falling
In the permanence of a loss;
To stand on firm ground
Looking forward and back

To catch a falling leaf again.

I did snip one of the "ands" out as Mary suggested and made a minor change to lines 7 and 8 to help my ear with the rhythm of the piece. I don't think it changed your meaning in any way.

At any rate, I hope you don't mind my tinkering with your work. It is a fine piece, as is, and I hope you find my comments useful whether you decide to edit or not.

Joe

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2022 02:42PM by hpesoj.

The last unfolding epiphany I had was when a taxi hit our car right after midnight and my head, face forward, collided with the windshield. The shattering of the windshield spread out like a spider web. That shatter seemed to take a long, long time. The epiphany was that I was going to continue to live.

I was initially, Aaron, thrown off by the way you laid out the poem. But then I realized you were experimenting. I think poetry is experimental, as does Wallace Stevens. Then others started making suggestions on how to make it fit their expectations, tweaking it here and there. I guess they were experimenting too.

My suggestion is, maybe experiment by writing another, different poem.

avanti,

Peter

so Pete, how come you signed off with the name of an old Studebaker?

you didn't care for Studebakers when you were a kid?

Aaron,

Ezra Pound said to William Carlos Williams, at the end of a letter dated 21 May 1909, critiquing Williams' first book, I think, Poems (1909), "P.S. And remember a man's real work is what he is going to do, not what is behind him. Avanti e corragio!"

Robert Creeley used to sign his letters to me, "Avanti.'

So I pass forward the encouragement that fills the word, to go forward with your work, Avanti.

Peter

Again, thank you all for your continued time and consideration.

Joe, I am not really sure what a title is, yet agree that the title is not right. Thanks for your thoughts

Peter, you are right in that writing for me is experimental, and thanks for the encouragement.

The line "Life is an unfolding epiphany" is abstract, and is all 'tell' and no 'show', so is not a stong line for a short poem, let alone as a closer. I also agree with Joe that it mistakes the meaning of epiphany. An epiphany is not something that unfolds over a lifetime. It is a sudden moment of manifestation or revelation of something divine, or of some higher reality, or essential truth, or the basic nature of something. A flash of illumination rather than gradual enlightenment.

There are other criticisms I could make of this poem, and some of them have already been made by others, but you are new to Emule, Aaron, and I don't wish to seem discouraging. It's generally a friendly forum. Your contributions are welcome.

I think there's good sense in Peter's suggestion that you don't get stuck trying to repair this imperfect poem by tweaking it, but move on to writing something new.

Ian

Aaron,

Don't be overwhelmed by the abundance of our replies, or even being somewhat left out of the conversation when things trail off. You'll get used to things quite quickly and find all this is merely due to our being so absurdly lax and familiar. Feel no obligation to keep pace, feel free to join in at your leisure, and try not to take us too seriously.

I wasn't going to add any more to this thread so as not to overwhelm you with all the banter we sometimes get into over a poem, Aaron, as Percival (Mr. P) speaks about above, but I just have to.

I'm going to disagree heartily with both Joe and Ian on the meaning (and your use) of epiphany, which I find beautifully appropriate in this piece. Funny, because I think I learned the word on this site a couple years ago when Peter used it. It might sound like I'm contradicting myself because I questioned its necessity to the poem itself...but this about its appropriateness of usage for its meaning.

Although most people use it in the sense of describing an "aha" moment that happens instantaneously and is of brief and fleeting nature, I disagree with the exclusivity of that as its definition.

One Look Dictionary:
▸ noun: a divine manifestation ("he is a divine manifestation ")

Although we like answers and we understand them better when handed to us in a neatly wrapped package, it doesn't mean that's the only way they are given. Poetry, itself, often demonstrates that.

Ian says >"Life is an unfolding epiphany" is abstract, and is all 'tell' and no 'show',

The mysteries of life are, indeed, abstract and some take a lifetime to unfold. I believe Aaron did a great job of "showing" this in the first two stanzas.

That's just my two cents on epiphany. Hopefully we haven't scared you away yet Aaron. Hang in there.

Mary

Mary, I am not easy to scare off. I am actually a bit flattered to have sparked some good discussion. I have been thinking about the phrase “unfolding epiphany” and why these were the words I choose. Like you and Ian said, I agree that it is abstract, which is exactly why I used it. I don’t know how to describe life in concrete terms, I’m not that good at poetry.

It seems like the word unfolding has thrown some people off, but for a different reason than I. My problem is not that it implies something happening in steps over time, but that after something has been unfolded, it is somehow all too different from what it was before. It is linear or exponential, not circular.

Ian, criticisms are not discouraging to me. I am new to writing and trying to get better, so thank you for your help.
Cheers

Ahem When I hear such things as, "I don't scare easy", I come running. I've been with the locals for years, and I'm willing to put money on my scaring them from time to time. I find a great deal can be divined of a person by their fears. So, neophyte, at the risk of scaring off the new blood, what are the presumably few things that do frighten you?

.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2021 12:38AM by petersz.

Now you misquoted me. I never said "I don't scare easy"
I said "I am not easy to scare off"
off is the key word here.

Posting a poem on here frightened me greatly. Waiting for a response even more so. And not because I feared no one would like it, but because I feared no one would respond at all.

Pride seems to always get in the way of my being scared off

Ah, well, my response is the same in either case. You see, I am a hideously curious person, it seems. I happened upon a question some time ago which has proved to require increasingly abundant quantities of information. One type of information I need is found primarily in the thoughts of others. What their thoughts are, how they think, so on, so forth. Now, many people are extremely uncomfortable with discussing anything in any depth, which I can understand. But depth is exactly what I need, and lots of it. So, he who is not easily scared off, I hope you take a great deal of pride in your ability to converse, because we're going gonna shoot right out of china, straight into space. So, how about it?

I find a great deal can be divined of a person by their fears. So, neophyte, at the risk of scaring off the new blood, what are the presumably few things that do frighten you?

...One type of information I need is found primarily in the thoughts of others. What their thoughts are, how they think, so on, so forth. Now, many people are extremely uncomfortable with discussing anything in any depth, which I can understand. But depth is exactly what I need, and lots of it.

I think a problem for you, Percival, is that this forum is intended to be a poetry site, and that's what new posters in particular expect, whereas of late you seem to be treating it more and more as a forum for attempting to psychoanalyse others and yourself. I know you are on record with your view to the effect that that's the whole purpose of poetry. I happen to think that's too narrow (and boring) a view. It may be one aspect, but poetry has many aspects.

Of course this forum is made more enjoyable by friendly banter and recounting of significant experiences and points of view between friendly Emulers. I wouldn't want that changed. IMO however it's best when in the context of some poem.

If you are searching for significance, go back to the poem. Though most contributors, especially beginners, do write mostly about themselves and their own feelings and experiences, remember it is quite possible for a poet to write a poem with a poetic persona who is not the poet. Some experienced poets do that often.

Cheers,

Ian

Ya, I know =[

Suppose I better cool it.

Mr. P,

I appreciate your invitation, and of course welcome conversation. I fear however that my girlfriend might get a bit jealous if I went to outerspace without her. I tend to agree with Ian, in that my expectation for this forum is to have a conversation centered around poetry.

If something in the poem provokes a question, by all means ask it and I will do my best to answer.

Aaron

Well, I'm afraid Ian makes a very good point. I have, as of late, rather high-jacked the mule for my own purposes. Simply, I didn't give it any thought, but now that I have, and that Ian has come forward with his own complaints, I have decided to slow down a bit. So, I'm going to finish up my current discussions else where, and not begin anymore for some time, including, my apologies, one with you.

I will do the same

lovely elements throughout but the last line seals the deal. Excellent!

just read it again. That is fabulous. You really clench it in the last line as a perfect closure to well expressed beginnings.

bump...worth numerous reads. fantastic.