I expected peace as I once possessed
And strength I wanted to believe would see me through
And it may yet, but I was never whole

Slowly, I see the ruin
Can accept it, held up to plans of rebuilding
And the infinite dangers

I will be sickened to find a sentient
And worry of the aeons of war to come
Should it continue it's current intentions

I only want to die, not be bothered by this cycle
And so the power I must amass is unwelcome
And the life I must live is infuriating

I only want peace or nonexistence
And if I can't have either, well
Unlike what made me
I'll suffer in silence

Eleven-foot poles! Get your eleven-foot poles here! Nothing impresses the Mrs' like ELEVEN-FOOT POLES!

Well, Percival, I'm not making as much sense out of this one as I have of your last few. I had to look up aeons and sentient and am frustrated lately when I have to do that. Probably because the definitions don't seem to be as handy anymore. They have the word, identify if its a noun, adverb, etc. and that's it!Then when I finally found them, it didn't help me understand the poem any better.

Anyway, back to the poem. A minor thing...it's in S3L3 should be its
I have no idea, but it feels as if the words are disconnected from the author as if trying to write from someone else's view or through someone else's eyes. As if pretending to be them, but not quite making it. I'm sorry if that's not the case, but that's how it feels to me when reading. Maybe it's just a holding back I sense. As if it is dressed up too much, not to sugar coat, but rather so the truth at its core is not revealed as clearly as it could be, and perhaps not just to the reader.

This probably all sounds like jibberish and isn't what you were looking for in response to this poem, but it's what I have for the moment.

Mary

Perhaps its that this poem is an incomplete thought that gives the impression of concealment, or that I'm leaning on personal terms. In either case, I imagine it unfair to spoil the surprise before everyone's had a chance, so, let's wait a bit before I reveal and such.

Percival:

Another 'victim' poem, I see. Terms like "I was never whole," "I see the ruin," "Can Accept it," "I only want to die," and "I want...nonexistence," all signal a resignation to fate and submission to a bleak and torturous future. What I never seem to understand in these poems of yours, however, is why the speaker is so resigned to such a life without raising the slightest challenge, or showing some determination, at least, to fight. Perhaps that is what Marty misses here, as well.

On a grammatical note (not that I'm a guru in these matters by any stretch),'sentient' is an adjective; thus, "I will be sickened to find a sentient," is improper usage. You may want to change the word to sentience, which is a noun.

Joe

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 12:27PM by hpesoj.

dang mr p,

ruble restored, war is never far away, you can't let yourself trust that the destruction of a soul can't happen all over again. what it took to rebuild was enough for one's lifetime, but if it happens again, you'd sooner just not exist. yet, your wisdom shines when you admit what most of us find out again and again, that what we'd like (the third choice) rarely happens. and if so, then you'll ride out this next rubling war in silence.

anyways, maybe i am missing something. i got sidetracked with those eleven foot poles....

Emm, closer and closer. A bit more time before I reply.

I've seen you get sidetracked by breathing.

I don't know what you mean, and that makes me laugh =]

mary,

i am always looking up words, in good part cuz of johnny. the website : onelook.com is great. but until they publish a noodleboy's dictionary, i'll still be looking up words that don't exist anywhere but on a certain island back east.

"I'd like to visit that Long Island place, if only it were real."
Marge Simpson , while drinking a Long Island Iced Tea

Percival, don't take yourself so seriously. Nobody gets out of this world alive, our only consolation is knowing that it's the same for everyone.


Les

Given the circumstances, I think I take things rather light-heartedly.

mr p,

i'm trying to find the post you did that sheds light on all this. but having read that post, this makes sense to me. not that you need me to give it a "makes sense" blessing, but i do understand where you are coming from now.

All you had to do was ask. =]

Anyway. When I say I've been crazy, I'm not using it as a clever metaphor or a joke. I was crazy. It seems people aren't quite grasping this. Now, maybe it's due to the information I deal in, maybe in people's minds this makes me immune to faults of the mind. Not so. Maybe this disbelief is due to a lack of similar experience, which would make sense as none of this ever occurred to me before it occurred. For some crazy reason, information from people who bothered to take the time to look within isn't in the ether. Which surprises me. I mean, all this time humanity's been on earth, what else could we be doing? Anyone up for a rhetorical answer?

So, first two stanzas is dealing with that. The rest basically say I'm going to kill your gods. I'm going to build a machine to kill your gods. I'm going to raise an empire to house the machine to kill your gods.

Rhetorical answer.

Yes, I need it explained. I always need it eplained. I literalized it to death.

After all the myth stories I've heard and read, I still forget that all of life is a metaphor and the answers to the big questions are never found. And yet we still look for them. But we can only really look for them inside because they are not outside of us. Human kind usually goes off track on that point.

I see it this way. This piece came from a much deeper place inside, beyond limits of mortality and time. You've taken the voice of the greatest power we all hold in us and used it to lament the fact that even that great power and all it can bring seems not enough to fix this mess of a world. So just let it be.

At least that's what I thought you meant. (I've been wrong more often than not)

If I am close, then it reinforces Joseph Campbell's quote: The world is a mess. A perfect mess.

"Thanks !"
Sarayu

Well, the way I see it, life is complex. Far more complex than some would like. There are many dangers, so many that people often choose to avoid rather than challenge them. Some even prefer to imagine life as simpler than it is, for purposes of comfort. I might go so far as to say this has become an encouraged pastime. While some understand the cost of living such a life, and consciously choose to pay, it seems they rarely consider the price paid by new generations, people born into a world where this is acceptable behavior. People who live their lives from birth in this situation are robbed of essential thoughts and skills, the effect snowballs on further generations.

Certainly, we can't be held responsible for every aftershock of our actions, and many of us, when learning we inadvertently harmed other, will seek to correct this mistake. But can we perceive those mistakes if we aren't looking for them? Looking away?

Oh, and I certainly did not mean to just let it be. Quite the opposite. Seems the current interpretation of the last line is that it meant to say something of that like. Not so, what I meant to say was that I will not take my angers, frustrations, hatreds, so forth, out on others. My pain will be mine, I will not inflict it on others.

Percival, the poem started out more like a riddle.....I run all over, but have no legs, who am I? I think that's what made me think you were trying to write as if you were someone else.

And yes, it is really hard for people who've never experienced it; to grasp, believe, or understand what it's like to be crazy. But if you beat around the bush, they never can. For many, however, you can talk till you're blue in the face and they never will.... unless (or until) it happens to them.

The following questions are not intended to be smart allecky, but seriously wanting to know where you were coming from. It won't hurt my feelings if you don't care to answer.

When you say you possessed peace at one time, but were never whole....are you talking about two completely different things? You were contented, but never quite right; happy, but never fulfilled; normal, but never happy??

And how does the strength that you had hoped would see you through (and still may) differ from the unwelcomed power you must amass?

What is so infuriating about the life you must live?

And when you say "unlike what made me"....are you talking about the person or people who physically made and gave birth to you....the circumstances that molded you....or other people's gods you want to kill?

Mary

That's five questions, arguably eight or more. As you've yet been warned about how I handle these things, I'll count it as one with a catch. I find it appropriate to, when asking an opening question, first answer one. I'll answer every question when you answer mine, but the catch is you must be as elaborate and encompassing as possible, don't merely answer the question, but explain your reasons for coming to that conclusion, and those, so forth, until you're blue in the face and can't possibly think of any more connections.

So, so, so, one question, what am I gonna ask, what am I gonna ask. I'm feeling playful, so you should brace yourself. If the question doesn't suit you, I'll device another. And by suit I don't mean discomforting. Why do you believe in god?

Joseph,

You may want to take this into consideration. Imagine a person stranded in the middle of the vast ocean, with only tools and knowledge that might, through completely unimaginable luck, see them out. Their company is pain, and dread. Would this person have a greater chance of survival fantasizing about that luck for a.. reprieve, or looking for it amidst the agony?

Percival, that question suits me fine, as does your invitation to speak at length and in depth about it. The "connections" are precisely why I believe, and they span back over my lifetime, perhpas even longer. It would take the rest of my life to chronicle it for you, and it still wouldn't be completed. I will think about what, if any part of it, that I should share with you. Much of it is not easily explained and some is unexplainable. I appreciate your interest, however, as does He.

Mary

Now, now. Presenting untested theories as facts in a debate can be perceived as quite rude, if not an act of aggression. I assure you, I can be far more persuasive when I employ that method.

But perhaps you have misunderstood me. I'm not pining for religious enlightenment, so to speak. Certain theories I'm pursuing require more information on the subject. Increasingly so, your beliefs, through my eyes, are being disproven. But should you be driven to convince me otherwise, I will patiently listen.

ah, my friend. It's been awhile. You sound sad...if you need to talk, hit me up.
frost42_24@yahoo.com

otherwise,well written piece. Enjoyed it. Good to see you posting again.

Emmm, I've been around, steadily, for quite some time. Though granted I haven't posted a poem. Talking is well and good, but you'll have to keep in mind my interests are very broad in a narrow sort of way. And no, I'm not sad or looking for something like emotional support, my poems are just like that sometimes.

I imagine it unfair to spoil the surprise before everyone's had a chance

So what's the surprise, Percival?

I meant the intended meaning of the poem, revealing it. You wouldn't be dodging my question would you? If so, take heart, it's an increasingly common response. Either case you won't get that answer till I get mine.

peace, non-existence or silent suffering instead of one's aspirations and the futility of a frustrated will to power?

You'll pardon me, Peter, but I'm holding the answer for ransom at the moment. But do be patient. I bore easily and often find this to be the point religious folk lack integrity to continue.

That's ok, P. I don't mind cliff-hanging melodrama, being a Sherlock Holmes fan myself. I just check in from time to time to see what happening on your thread.

Peter

Percival, the questions I asked you were a sincere attempt to better understand what you were saying, thinking, or feeling with this poem. I was not on a mission to enlighten you about God or convince you of anything. If not for my beliefs, however, I probably wouldn't have given a shit enough to ask.

You returned my questions with a question about my belief in God , gave stipulations about the way I was to answer it, and then it turns out you really weren't interested to know my answer, but just looking for an opportunity to "debate", counter, disprove, or otherwise be antagonistic towards it.

can be perceived as quite rude, if not an act of aggression
You can say that again, but to yourself this time.

Don't ask me a question if you don't want to hear my answer. I don't appreciate your insults and will not waste my time playing your little games.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." -
KJV, Matthew 7:6

[edit] Phrasecast pearls before swine

(idiomatic) To give things of value to those who will not understand or appreciate it.


Mary

"Pearls?" - a gift from my cartoon artist friend Mom last week...

Uhng, I really hate tiptoeing, Marty.

"Presenting untested theories as facts in a debate can be perceived as quite rude, if not an act of aggression." was a direct response to this: "as does He." Attempting to use my own words against me is a bad idea.

Now, I never insulted you. I said that others I have talked with, at this point, run. Sometimes they become deflective, accusing me of all sorts of things. I assume they do this so that, in their mind, I am not worth the effort. This of course sounds exactly like what you're doing at this very moment, but unlike you, I don't jump to conclusions. Maybe you do indeed believe I was slighting you, which I was not. Was I teasing you a little? Yes, but grow the fuck up. Remember who you're talking to. Do I go around insulting people for kicks? Do I seem like the person who gets off believing myself better than others, putting others down? Don't I devote my arguments toward a unified whole, an agreement and cooperation? Don't I prove myself wrong before right?

Anyway, I hope we've settled that. If not, now's the time to bring up any qualms to set things in order before, I hope, we continue the conversation.

You really hate tiptoeing? It's been twelve days since you posted a poem that tip toes as fine as any dancer I've seen and you've done a great job of high stepping ever since; by changing the subject and putting the spot light on me.

untested theories? By whom? From my perspective, I'd say, surely you jest. In my world, He tests me, I don't test Him. And He gives me proof every day.

A debate? I never signed up for one and my belief in God is not up for debate.

Whether or not you insulted me is not for you to decide, Percival. The only thing you get to decide is your intention.

If people run, at this point, it might be fruitful for you to consider whether it has something to do with how you interact with them. You might consider ocassions when you should remember who you're talking to as well.

As far as having a grown up conversation, the way I see it, you'd tell me how you've arrived at your beliefs and I'd tell you how I've arrived at mine (or vice versa...it wouldn't matter who goes first). We wouldn't have any rules, except to be respectful of each other and our differences and try not to stomp on each other's beliefs.

Maybe you could explain why people who doubt, or don't believe in a God, get so angry when others do. How it is that they feel perfectly justified to trash not only the idea of a God, but the person who believes in Him as well. Yet a believer says something like "as does He", and it's as if they've launched a major attack. It's like a vampire coming at you with wild eyes and a gaping mouth. You hold up a little piece of garlic from grandma's garden and they go bolistic and fall into contorsions.

Pretend for a minute that you had a neighbor who continually complained that he had no visitors, that he was bored, and spent too much time alone. You decide to make an effort to cheer him up or brighten his day. You go to the store and buy a lemmon poppyseed cake because you overheard him say he liked that kind, you pick up some coffee, and head over to his house and plan to spend some time with him.

You get there, and he starts going on about how he thinks Polish people are stupid, and you just happen to be Polish. He then says he's not eating one piece of that f'n cake until you run around the block three times while rubbing your belly and whistling Dixie. After you're done with that, you have to do 40 push ups and recite the alphabet backwards, vowels first. Then, and only then, will he do you the favor of having a piece of cake with you. You even consider doing what he says, but tell him you'll have to run home first to get your tennis shoes. He then starts yelling about how Polish people are sissy's too. They can't run for shit unless they're wearing their little girly shoes. Would you stick around or get upset and leave? Imagine how victorious he feels that you've proven his point that Polish people are quitters too!

It was of no concern to me whether or not you answered my questions. I would only ask them relative to getting to know and understand you better. There wasn't a catch.

And we move on yet?

Mary

Well, personally, I dislike the religious because they are inconsistent. They rarely, when asked to discuss their beliefs without taking for granted the existence of their version of god, provide an empirical answer. I dislike that trait in anyone, that it happens to be common in the religious is what makes me dislike them, not the other way around. I'm fine with people believing whatever they please, as long as they understand their own reasons for that belief, are willing to consider contradicting evidence, accept being wrong. Might I be wrong, might your beliefs which I measure as false be the truth? Perhaps. But I don't find anything suggesting it so, increasingly I find reasons for the opposite, despite my intentionally looking for reasons you might be right. Just as I would assume you do, my thoughts are based on what I perceive is true. But if I refuse to be wrong, I cannot learn. By my current estimations, you refuse to seriously question the possibility of your being wrong. And this makes you, in my view, dangerous to yourself and others. That you appear to so quickly become aggressive and deflecting only supports this theory.

Now, you can keep slandering me, which will only fortify my position. Or you can prove me wrong by answering a question which I imagine would be very easy to answer. I willingly disperse the reasons for my beliefs and actions, I would expect the same of anyone devoted to a set of ideals. If you'd rather not answer my question until I answer yours, say the word.

I was raised in the Episcopal (or Anglican or "Catholic Light" if you prefer) tradition. I also was raised in a home where verbal fighting was the daily norm. No one in my world knew how to disagree or express anger in a healthy way. When I realized I was a grown and singular person I had to come to terms with all of the contradictions those experiences placed in me -- and remain around me.

I enjoy a good conversation about the existential when it is a respectful give and take. This does not sound like one of those.

In my view, what most people refer to as "God" (by some name or other) is a very serious, personal and powerful mystery that mankind cannot truly resolve. For me it is simply the essence of all that is. It cannot be explained or named adequately. Were it not a mystery, and were any of us able to explain what “God” means, it could signal the end of us all.

Personally, I gave up the view of the church long ago. The dogma that comes with any religion is based in that group's needs, and how it has chosen to hold its structure together. Contradiction is inevitable in any version of this. But I still accept that something I cannot explain (and is greater than myself) exists in all that my meager mind can grasp. I choose to honor and give thanks for that, and try to feel that presence in my life. It does not need a name or a set of rules to be in me or to be important to me.

Things that attend our beliefs: praise, ritual worship, collective grieving, thanks, prayer etc. are universal and belong to even the most ancient cultures. They are necessary and important for the survival of most of us, and I respect them. (At least to the extent that they are not imposed on me by others.)

A while back I made a small book of poems. I introduced a chapter titled “The Mystery” with this passage:

Being human is one hell of a challenge, and a precious gift. Trying to explain what it means is utterly impossible, which is why so many of us try to do it.

I have a simple philosophy about beliefs in things that are of the divine, of god, of the other world or worlds, or other times. I accept it all as possible, and I doubt everything. I don’t have to be right, and I don’t have to convince anyone else that I am. That works in both directions. No one needs to convince me of their truth. I accept that it is their truth.

That being said, I will always open up to a thought or a feeling that helps to explore that which cannot be explained. I value all sincere efforts at praising and considering the mystery that is our existence. I expect no answers and (to borrow from Rielke’s work) I thrive on the endless possibilities of being.

Percival, I am sorry if anything I've said has slandered you. I agree with all of what Steve says, including that it is difficult to express anger in a healthy way. Again, I'm sorry.

Mary

Twas ever thus:

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”

St. Thomas Aquinas

Marty,

I'm challenging the core of your being. If you aren't a little pissed, you're a corpse, don't apologize. As to what you perceived as intended insults on my end, my true intentions were friendly banter. But as I'm aware you don't take it as such, I'll hold back a bit. Everyone's a little upset in a good compromise.




Steve,

It sounds like you're suggesting passivism? But does your approach make room for preparedness, or are you only thrilled by comforting things? Since the revolutionary war, America has employed snipers in every war. However, until after Vietnam, the trade was repeatedly put away and forgotten after every war. The reason being that it was regarded as an unpleasant method, something to be ashamed of and such. This feeling, in every war that it had to be resurrected from square one as the methods were intentionally forgotten, cost many lives. Only after this harsh necessity was accepted were our side capable of competing, until that point we were lambs to slaughter. I imagine Merc can verify this.

What I'm getting at is that everyone can't be right. And trying to make it so costs more than a few hurt feelings. Every action we make at this level of thought, as it influences the actions of others, has far more ramifications that we would like.

"Apathy is death."




Johnny,

I'm sure you could be more incorrect, but you might actually have to put yourself on the line for that.

Oh, and Marty, no harm done, no need to apologize. Remember, you were proving my point =] Banter. Banter. Banter. While I may be free with my insults, it's rare that I only intend harm.

Mr.P
There is some truth in your observation. Passivity has dominated much of my life. But I prefer to think of myself as passive agressive. It has taken a lot of effort to tell them apart. I'm just striving for "live and let live", but recognize the idealistic nature of that position.

If someone crosses my boundaries I will cut their head off, and feel no shame for doing it. And should I cross another's boundaries, I should be prepared to defend myself for surely they will try to kill me.

I have travelled many hot spots around the globe in my work, and once knew that I was safe as an American abroad because we had "poeple" in dark places who took care of us. I knew that was the way things had to be.

Since the mid 70s that protection has gone away. Replaced by overt and ineffective threats rather than carefully targeted and unseen actions. That quiet protection was taken away by those who could not stomach the existence of what was the equivalent of the snipers you refer to. I am not one of the opponents, I assure you. I still take my chances out there, but I long for the time when intelligent people knew who to shoot at, and did not have to brag about doing it.

My point being that I don't have to kill the enemy until I am attacked. If I should find myself living in constant fear of attack, then I should construct a safer place and way to reside, not kill everything that might appear dangerous.

Steve

Em, certainly. Though I feel in this age, shadow wars must not be employed. It is far too simple for an individual to acquire power enough to destroy us all, and I imagine this will only become a greater threat in the future. But what do I know of these things?

Live and let live, certainly. But when a piece of a whole, a single piece malfunctions, doesn't the whole malfunction as well? Would it seem correct to assume that humanity will never achieve total peace, within regards to men no longer fighting each other, until it becomes a whole? And together devote themselves to peace through methods known to succeed? And, at our current point, is that not, immediately, impossible? Don't we have a ways to go, work to do?

While I like passivists more than religious, it is not due to any virtue. Passivists rarely do anything, they can be ignored. They often talk of peace but pretend sitting on their hands will change the world. Exactly how much will you let your enemy encompass you, removing every possibility of defense, counter, or escape, despite never directly attacking, till you act?

Oh, you're not off the hook Marty. Don't go scampering off just because Steve came to your rescue.

Now then, Peter, I'm going to look directly at you so that Marty doesn't get the idea that this is all for her benefit. So don't get self conscious, I'm not staring at your humongous freckles.

Anyhoo. As I've said, I've been less than sane. Before this time, despite a trying early childhood, I was rather easy going. In privacy I would do simple things that amused me, games, puzzles, general adventuring about in the wilderness, passing the time with friends, so forth. Things were bad before I went mad, but never so bad that my spirit was permanently dampered. This all changed with madness. I watched the tools which kept me going throughout my life become twisted and eventually turn against me, I experienced pains and terrors no damage to flesh could ever match, for years. Everything changed.

While at my core, I'm still fun loving & easy going, I am no longer only that. I am no longer capable of fully enjoying myself in any diversion, any happiness no matter how euphoric, no matter how embracing. This because in regaining sanity I had to understand my mind, and saw how truly fragile it is. I am constantly aware of how things may go wrong, how despite every precaution and fortification, things may turn sour. And so I am constantly on guard. Some may see this as paranoia, those people are fools. I have been to hell and never intent to return.

This naturally aggravates me. That I was born into a life that requires constant labor on my part, constant effort, blood and sweat, just to be at peace, despite having no taste for luxury. My aspirations are simple, but acquiring them is not even remotely simple. I have never been one to roll over, despite this often doing more harm than good. I hate that I have to my spend my time attending to things I had no part in creating, problems I did not cause. By my measure, the effort is not worth the gain. And the irony that the only thing I act for is the prevention of pain is enraging. That even this rage and anger, this natural response to the situation is self destructive, only further complicates things.

But what else am I to do? As to the silent suffering, many are unaware of the massive wake our every action produces. I intend to devote a majority of my effort preventing others suffering due to my actions, directly and indirectly. As to my haranguing of the religious, well, keep in mind I do not move past the point of mere verbal debate. And I'm only doing what they are, only on an infinitely smaller scale. That my minuscule actions happen to have so much greater impact than the whole of their body combined is determined by the laws of reality, not I.

Perce,

None of us seems to live in a world of our own making. Often human action seems to have both more and fewer consequences than we intend. A grown up lives in some consciousness that for the most part he or she simultaneously lives within conditions he cannot control and that he or she is somehow, nevertheless, still responsible for his/her behaviour, even when they are not directly the result of his or her personal actions. Meanwhile, I am perplexed that so many people confuse religion with the capacity for moral behavior, since for some of us, religion is simply irrelevant...

(I know some believe they derive their moral code from their religious experience, but I haven't found that morality has anything at all to do with moral codes...I place this in parentheses here because it is a sidetrack branching from a tangent.)

I know it is no consolation, Perce, but we live in a mad world in which no one gets what he or she deserves, no matter how much talk there is about 'justice.' The tally simply does not add up that what seems to be good is rewarded and what seems to be wrong is punished So don't feel especially slighted in that regard.

And it is not any consolation that the different parts of the world we live in...the personal, the public, the political, etc....do not mesh, do not fit into a comprehensive pattern. We humans are in practice inconsistent. This frustrates our desire to appear wholly rational. We so want to appear reasonable and rational, at least to ourselves.

It is a burden to carry our own irrationality and inconsistency into each new action ... it's messy. Life is messy, even though we have such a desire for closure, moral comprehensibility, purpose --right in the middle of having to make decisions which are for the most part irrevocable.

These are some of the things I have thought about for a long, long time. I share them with you because you seem to care about these issues. I am not arguing for the rightness of any of my tentative conclusions, but I think some of these thoughts might be help to you in your thinking.

Your friend,

Peter

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2008 09:48AM by petersz.

Great discussion.

I meet every other week with a group of guys where we have a unique relationship. For 3 hours we struggle with these matters you are discussing. Simply the issue of being in this world and surviving it. We have for many years argued, wept, contemplated and shared almost everything in our lives. But at its core this is just a place where a few men can discuss their true feelings. To own them, to honor them and to live with them. We manage to do this without the usual competition, personalized disagreement, shaming and judgment that all men endure in this culture. It is in its way a sacred space for those few hours. Nothing about religion, at least not overtly.

I attend a lot of gatherings of men who are like minded. (one just last month with 100 men from around the country) I have yet to meet a man who is not screwed up according to someone’s definition, which is usually his own. It is truly amazing when you find out how many of us are struggling daily with one kind of demon or another. And while none of us are the same, we all share the same universal feelings. Joy, fear, grief, anger, hatred, etc. . That is something we can always discuss and most people agree we have in common. We were wounded in our lives and we struggle.

It’s interesting. If you get a group of men together and ask them to tell about the successes in their lives, you will get about a 20 minute conversation and that’s it. The conversation I am in with these guys about our failings and our struggles is a conversation that has lasted, so far, 9 years. In theory it could never end.

Some basic agreements have come from all of this work we do together. First, we accept that we are not responsible for the feelings of others. The way we say it is that we may be responsible to others, but we are not responsible FOR them. Of course we leave a wake. Our actions and decisions do make it easier or harder for others. But what people choose to feel about that is beyond our control. To think otherwise would be pretty damn arrogant. What do I have to say about you choose to feel about me.

We accept that the world is messed up and that life is messy, and that we screw things up. I personally am capable of fucking up a train wreck on any given day. So we choose to work, each in his own way, toward making our own lives matter to us. Not to others. We know that most of the negative things we see in others is a projection of our own stuff. We know that the complications, the hard decisions and the mess is part of what it means to be human.

So the goal, at least for me, is to choose to value myself no matter what. I know that sounds very simplistic, but it is not. It requires a constant effort and I fail over and over to achieve that goal. But it is worth the struggle. I am worth the struggle. No matter how screwed up I (or the world around) seems, if I can value myself then life for me has a purpose. And when I fail to value myself, then it is much harder to be of any good to those around me or the world in general. So I start at that simple point.

Value myself unconditionally.

I see that in what you guys are discussing. I hear the sincere caring and truly deep work that is going on, and I honor it and respect it.

I guess that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

Steve

Peter,

I appreciate the contribution, though I am aware of all you mentioned. I just like to say it out loud to get some feedback, you know.

As to morality and religion, well, I suppose they've built their entire comprehension of the world around the religion. So it all becomes interconnected. Personally, after much time trying, I've yet to find a religious person whom I can agree with on most anything. Which is the politest way I can think of saying I ignore them like children. Though it occurs to me to make it clear that I do not and will never take aggressive actions against them. I see them as insane, and thus to be pitied and treated with care.

Steevo,

You need to tell me the name of this group. As for valuing myself, well. I wouldn't go so far as to say I "value" myself and my existence. I take care of myself, I keep myself in happiness and health, but this is to prevent less savory states of mind. I'm currently undecided on the subject I suppose, but if I'd have to take a stab in the dark, I'd say I hate myself. Of course I include within the definition of self the whole of reality, for without one the other is nonexistent. But this doesn't stop me from doing what need be done. I don't allow my hatred to determine my actions. I merely recognize it's existence, and do what I have to do despite what animalistic impulses may drive me to do.

I think we're ALL CRAZY and that the key to happiness is surrounding yourself with people who are YOUR KIND OF CRAZY. That's my 1 cent.

Now there's a point I can stand behind. But I think we're trying to figure out which of us is less crazy, and which will consume our future in a all embracing permanent nightmare of batshit insanity.

'which of us is less crazy' easy: Les is less...
all the rest are all the rest...

Percival,

I've decided not to leave this post on the board for what I think should be obvious personal reasons.

Mary

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2021 11:01PM by UPMarty.

Mary,

You are a blessing.

Peter

You may not know this, but I'm smiling right now. You'll have to give me some time to go through this and construct a reply and such.

No one likes to be a wallflower.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2021 11:14PM by Mr. P.

wow. the last few comments make my feeble "one cent" look like a spec of dirt. I enjoyed reading these viewpoints. I am smiling. I hope you are too.

Thank you, Peter. You are a blessing as well.

Percival,
I'm glad if I brought a smile to your face and I appreciate the thoughtful response, though I think it was frosty's that really hit the nail on the head in far fewer words than either you or I could ever imagine using.

Frosty,
You're a blessing too and I think sum it up very succinctly with your spec of wisdom.

Mary

Not to be an ass, but I've used them before, minus the bit about finding others your type of crazy. Either case, shall we discuss things or no?

well, I certainly wasn't thinking I coined the phrase "we're all crazy". I think the second 1/2 is where I may have added a little something-though I also don't claim to be the only one who has ever come up with that concept.

And sure, let's discuss things. What KIND of things?

Now, now, it's rude to go butting in.