Friday, October 31, 2021 10:36 AM

Halloween in the City

Police will be
out in full force,
deploying extra
units prepared for
“mass arrests,”
Sgt. Lyn Tomioka
said.

Verbatum. This is a scary 'found poem' in the newspaper this morning.

Peter

Skedaddle all you copperphobes
    Be grateful in your caves
That the City's Finest in full force
    Are prepared to guard the graves

Equipped with cuffs and stun guns
    Our extra deployments mean
No outbreak of high spirits will
    Be allowed this Halloween

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2022 02:47AM by IanAKB.

Well, Ian, the city stole celebration from its citizens last year, too, So here we go again in the post un'Patriot' Act Homeland Security occupation of Halloween again. Like I say, scary.

Peter

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2008 09:33PM by petersz.

Were people as a whole trustworthy and responsible, a police force would never have come into existence. Their tendencies to be small and foolish men aside, their presence saves us all massive amounts of time and energy, not having to constantly devote ourselves to defense against sociopaths. The presence is an inevitability when order is desired in a large body of individuals with humanity's current psychological configuration. Don't like it? Take a vacation to the less stable areas of the world. See if you prefer being harassed by men who lack any sense of morality.

Peter,

I'm never quite sure whether Australian tongue-in-cheek will be recognised as such in the U.S. I hope you didn't read my little attempt at satire as applauding the police stealing your celebration. Isn't Halloween traditionally the evening when the spirits break out of their graves?

Ian

Sorry to be so touchy, Ian. I did actual detect some humor in your response. Perce doesn't seem to recognize the degree to which American policemen in cities like San Francisco have become just plain thugs with guns and badges, beating peaceful people on the sidewalks after festivals, etc. No, Perce, I am not under the illusion that things aren't bad all over. I just find it intolerable that honest people are not safe from those who are supposedly paid to protect them.

amo,

Peter

p.s.
The original posting is in fact straight from the local newspaper.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2022 03:11AM by petersz.

Oh, I understand. Few men these days understand the cost of power and thus remain susceptible to it's negative effects. But, again, the price of a few idiots deluded by pathetic imaginations of control is necessary. The alternative is far worse. That is not to say we should merely accept these people as they are, giving no effort to improving their character.

Either case, you seem to have missed my point. It's not bad here. It's idealic here. It's a god damned monkey wonderland that will some day give birth to a race of reasonable mother fuckers who don't live their lives in absurdly elaborate webs of self deception. But until that day, as well as when that day comes and beyond, we have to continually choose the lesser of evils. You think a few soft bellied cops is bad? Try living in a world where psychopaths go unpunished, free to rampage and spread their madness. You know, those people cops get paid bullshit wages to keep under control everyday, for you. And don't delude yourself, madmen take everything they can, nothing would spare you.

As I said occationally. Not only are they underpaid, but they quite often die in the line of duty. Sadam's cops very seldom died in the line of duty, it was the folks they were arresting that never made it to the interrigation room. However Mr. P, I don't quite agree with you about one thing. I don't think that race is coming.

I assure you Merc, it's coming. Though any fool can wield tools of destruction, few but the wise survive to rebuild.

Anyone who does not recognize that a cop's job is dangerous and that he or she could not possibly be adequately compensated for the risk is simply from outer space. That being said however, it would be comforting if not so many sadistic personalities were to make it through cadet school. I have faced too many psychopaths with guns in their hands, badges on their chests and RIGHT ON THEIR SIDE to concern myself with fantasies of either the Rousseauan or the Hobbsian varieties. No one I have ever met turned out to be merely good or merely bad,

But us mixed beings do the best we can sometimes. If those who believe in a totalitarian "I'll make your decisions for you" attitude as the lesser of evils keep getting their way, we'll never know if people can make decisions for themselves even in the worst of situations.

All that being said, putting thousands of cops on the streets does not seem like the way to celebrate a holiday. I was naive enough to think such a thing would never happen in America until the passage of the Patriot Act and the turning of our democracy into a 'homeland' -- like the fatherland of fascism a previous generation turned aside in the 30s and 40s. And yes, I did just read, "It Can't Happen Here," by Sinclair Lewis, so this is not a new and original 'paranoiac' imagining on my part.

Too many people willing to accept authoritarian rule as a necessary evil will bring a self-fulfilling prophecy.

amo,

Peter

Too many people willing to accept authoritarian rule as a necessary evil will bring a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Amen, brother.

Orwell's, "Politics and the English Language" is one of the best essays ever written on the subject. The birth of totalitarian rule comes about through the manipulation of the public psyche in response to a perceived danger. It's spread is always furtive and covert, gaining hold through the systlematic control of language. Terms such as "homeland security," "desert storm," "troop surge," etc. are designed to further allegiance and obeisance by dulling the thought process.

Regardless of the artistic merits of your poem, Peter, it has generated intelligent discussion on, perhaps, the most important issue of our time. Good work.

Joe

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2022 07:16AM by hpesoj.

Again, you're not listening Peter. Your complaints are minor in comparison to the chaos of leaving masses of individuals to their own devices. We've got plenty of bad people here, but they're nothing in comparison to truly corrupt men. It is society, the collective of experience, which betters man. Government, education, law, these things are the devices which nurture and sustain. I understand what you're driving at however, our keepers are indeed fools, the system is imperfect. But we're all fools, all imperfect, that's why no one can really agree on anything and why it's taken so many thousands of years to get to our pitiful state. Take yourself for example, don't you think there was more than a handful of individuals highly drugged up and raising havoc on halloween? More so than on any average day, which would easily excuse the police?

But, as always, things are getting better. One must always keep in mind that failure is required of success. That war is the context in which peace exists. We are not born into a safe world built for our pleasure, with minds capable of solving problems to which we have no experience, as religion so enjoys telling us the opposite of. We must suffer, we must fight, we must fail. These are the bread and butter of life, things necessary for growth, so we can, with that experience, begin to conceive order and peace. Only after reaching for it. After.

And yes, there are certainly dangerous paths of government and general conduct. I assume Merc would have the best information on that however, having seen such firsthand. But making those mistakes are the price we pay for growth as a society of this size. The bigger things get, the more complex and dangerous they become, such is life. However, all these prices are to be paid, there is no other way to live productively, to learn and improve from our mistakes.

So, I'm saying an iron fist is necessary at times. Some need to be jailed, forced into submission, even killed. At other times, patience, generosity, and forgiveness are needed. The trick is knowing the balance, the appropriate measure and time. Most people seem to lean in either direction, incapable of conceiving the balance, perhaps deluding themselves with expectations of an ideal society. Such expectations lead to ruin, nothing is ever ideal, striving blindly toward such is foolish. We are not gods, we must sacrifice. We must choose the lesser of evils.

I have lived a rather dangerous life for over forty years. I've been shot, stabbed, shot at, bombed at, and many other ats. I have had people of every color on earth point guns at me, I have had people of nearly every religion point guns at me, on every continent, in every political clime. I have known sociopaths, and pyscopaths. I have called devoids "friend". I have known military people of so many different views that there is not room just to name them, let alone define them. I have worked with and worked against probably fifty different kinds of law enforcement agencies. Not counting military police. I can't count the people I've seen killed. I've killed more than Billy the Kid myself, often with a gun.

I have NEVER had a police officer, nor any member of any constabulary of any entity of the United States of America, Canada, Ireland, Great Brittian nor Japan ever under any circumstance point a gun at me, nor have I seen one of these people with gun drawn, (except on a firing range).

I have to wonder what the hell you were doing Peter, to get an officer of the law to draw his gun. I have to really wonder.

Perce and Merce.

I think both of you have responded as well as you can given your individual experiences. I respect the integrity and sincerity of your comments. We are going to have to agree that we can't see eye to eye on the issue of police violence and brutality and the connections between those and totalitarian regimes.

So I will let it lie there for the moment, not promising to be quiet later.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2022 04:08PM by petersz.

Only one more thing to say on the subject. Most people who consider the police brutal, or thugs, are lawbreakers.

This issue is certainly worth bringing up, Peter. I was preparing to weigh in on the subject with as much objectivity as I thought possible for someone who has had little personal experience with police, except on the rare occasion to file a report or ask for assistance for something minor.

I had spent much time this morning penning my thoughts on the matter, using an analogy of Prosecuting Attorneys, Defense Attorneys, and Public Defenders to explain why though you and Joe probably have some valid reasons to represent your side, Terry and Percival, in my opinion, were winning the case by a landslide, thus far into the proceedings.

My niece, who suffers from mental illness and who has had many personal experiences with police and with being incarcerated, stopped by and my disertation was interrupted. We visited for a couple hours and this subject came up. I was taken back that her comments eerily mirrored many of yours, Peter. Some were verbatum.

At first, my feathers were sticking out and I was fully supplied with comebacks, explanations, and even stirred resentments for the impact her past mistakes have made on the family. If she didn't break the law, she wouldn't have been there in the first place. Right?

It wasn't until I really listened and asked questions about some of her experiences, that I came to see some things in a different light....from her perspective. I realized that her perspective is different from mine, not just because she's been incarcerated and I've not, but because of the many things that were or weren't going on inside her head when exhibiting behaviors (while in jail already) that were misconstrued by the police as those warranting additional punishment or degredation. An example would be her staying in bed all day and not doing her assigned chores being construed as willful disregard for the rules, insolence, or laziness, rather than what was probably severe clinical depression at the time.

The theme of adding insult to injury or kicking a man when he's already down came through consistently.

Terry, your last comment is one that I would have given three cheers of agreement for this morning.

Most people who consider the police brutal, or thugs, are lawbreakers.

Although I still agree, I conclude that only people who have broken the law know whether or not it's true.

Those of us who are perhaps arrogantly confident that we'll never break a law (or be wrongfully accused of breaking a law) are comfortable disregarding the accusations. I suppose at one time, hopefully not now, it could be said that people who consider the police brutal, or thugs, are black.

I'm not really weighing in, but let's just say my eyes are more open to the issue.

Mary

Yeah, you don't need rights if you've done nothing wrong

I could not have said it better myself, Johnny.

Actually, you did:

Rights
Posted by: drpeternsz (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: June 02, 2022 03:53PM


Rights

He gave advice. They took it.
I did not know what to say. So full--
The air and all its accomplices.
It dragged on-- our conversation.

We laughed out loud in
The conjugation of our lives. We were tried
And convicted without the least evidence.
We drank for our rights:

The right to be silent. The right to turn around.
The right to grow dark with the night.
The right to look up.
The right to keep laughing. The right to be silent.
The right to take a friend. The right to make time.
The right to lose in our own time. Anything
They couldn’t take from us.

That is our right. Let us drink, again.

Not weighing in you say? That's rather passive aggressive of you, some might even say feminine. But ignore my jokes for the moment.


Peter, let's admit that you're less than sane. Now, I have no reason to hold this against you, being victim of it myself, I sympathize. But even so, I know that, should the mental processes beyond my control lead me to actions which harm others, they are perfectly justified and correct in defending against me. Now, I personally think that preventative actions require care and tutoring, teaching individuals what not to do and why before the situations arise. But when the line is crossed, when one takes actions, intended or not, that harm others, punishment must come. Certainly, one must consider the causes which lead to that harmful action and craft the punishment accordingly. But to do so requires time and energy, both of which we need more of. We are not an enlightened people, we are small and stupid, half sentient, half animal, but when things get real bad, we often revert to animals.

Yes, our keepers are flawed, yes, we need to improve their understanding of themselves and those they treat with. But that is not accomplished by denying our individual roles in the whole of the equation. We also must improve ourselves and our contributions to the whole, for doing so is often the same as improving them. Does this still run the risk of totalitarianism? Yes. Of course. But this problem will only exist as long as we do not find the solution to it. To find it, we must face our problems unwavered by pride.

Well, maybe it was

Re: G. B. A.
Posted by: JohnnySansCulo (---.nycmny83.covad.net)
Date: November 04, 2021 05:36AM


The day for fightin' ain't today
so lets all swing the other way

let's outlaw most intercourse
and a ban on all divorce

swing your partner on the floor
hit 'em in the head with a 2x4 !

join me all now in this song !
don't need rights if you done no wrong !

knock the mexican and gay
and send the jobs off to Bombay !

Stick your head way up your crack
and send the kids off to Iraq

Now PROMENADE !



Now jump from fire to frying pan
Korea-n-Syria-n-Iran

Kill 'em all for God it pleases
Kill 'em in the name of Jesus !

Kill their Husband ! Kill their Wife !
Show'em the meaning of Right-to Life!


Crying yet? Need some tissues?
wipe them with your moral issues !

Need some Heat? Burn your Pride!
join me now in the Countrycide !

yee ha!

I'm not weighing in yet because the trial's not over.

My niece presented testimony for the defense today that was compelling. With questioning, it came to light that she is afraid. She feels the police have her in a choke hold as she moves about alone inside her apartment. She doesn't venture outside too often and finds living near the police department "scary".
Her testimony was not unlike that of a victim of violent crime, yet she herself has never committed a violent crime. Something did not seem right about that.

I'm posting my disertation that I wrote before I questioned her. I'm not sure if it's a demented rant, passive aggressive, feminine, or just what Percy, but here goes:


Peter,
If this is an excerpt from a larger article, I would like to read it in its entirety. If there are any events or situations in San Francisco that could be linked to the statements in this article, either contributing factors or additional instances of abuses of power, I'd like to know more about those too.

***************************************************************************
In this discussion, there would appear to be two strong and opposing opinions. I represent the group of folks who are often criticized for not getting involved enough, sitting back and doing nothing, as if complacent or apathetic about important issues such as this.
***********************************************************
I offer an analogy that may be too long for some to read:

I look at it like there are Prosecuting Attorneys, Defense attorneys, and Public Defenders who make up a small percentage of the population. The rest of us are the jurors (the masses if you will) who depend upon the attorneys to present the case which involves the facts surrounding it, the evidence thereof, and how the laws should be applied to it.

To suggest that all of us become attorneys or study the law in our spare time is not only unrealistic, but would stop the world from turning in short order.

Prosecuting attorneys are usually sharp shooters who only become so after years of experience in the trenches of the courts. They respect the responsibility placed on the shoulders of the jury, know that the jury holds the key to the outcome of the case, and that it is their responsibility to make a case. They inherently have an edge because they have made it their focus to get criminals off the streets and/or the general public sees it that way and they want criminals off the streets too.

Good defense attorneys have a much harder road. Like prosecutors, they've had their share of experience in the trenches with all sides of the law; the good, the bad, and the ugly. They, perhaps more than any, must focus keenly on each and every letter of the law, to the exclusion of their personal feelings or emotions on a matter. They have made it their focus to assure that every man, innocent or guilty, be given a fair trial according the laws of law itself.

Public defenders, well, I think they get there for different reasons. I speculate that some are there by choice because they have a passion for the underdog. Unfortuantely, passion alone doesn't cut it in a court of law, unless that passion drives him/her to the level of expertise of a good prosecutor or defense attorney. Sharp shooting public defenders, imo, are far and few between. It would seem they are satisfied they are doing their jobs by presenting the law as they came to know it. There seems to be a lower level of personal responsibility taken for their presentation of it. They may may be inclined to find fault with the jury for being blind, complacent, or not bright enough to see the truth. Or they may just think people are easily misled by sharply dressed, overbearing, sharp shooting attorneys with money and power.
*************************************************************************
Although I don't doubt that there is validity in the position that both you, Peter, and Joe take on this matter, you not only have not made your case, but you have lost a great deal of credibility both in what you presented (or more pointedly what you "didn't" present) and how you presented it.

Peter posts:

Halloween in the City

Police will be
out in full force,
deploying extra
units prepared for
“mass arrests,”
Sgt. Lyn Tomioka



Joe writes:
The birth of totalitarian rule comes about through the manipulation of the public psyche in response to a perceived danger. It's spread is always furtive and covert, gaining hold through the systlematic control of language. Terms such as "homeland security," "desert storm," "troop surge," etc. are designed to further allegiance and obeisance by dulling the thought process.


**************************************************

"Perceived danger" is precisely the issue being debated from two sides of a coin.

As a juror, you insult my intelligence by asking me to believe that San Fransisco has ceceded and become a communistic state. Your failure to present all the facts so that I can make an informed decision is not only a poor presentation of your case, but may lead me to believe you are purposefully withholding information in an attempt to mislead me.

Joe's testimony does little to support and actually strengthens the opposition. Could not "gaining hold through the systematic control of language" also include the absence of language or the withholding of facts or information?

I could say more about why Terry and Percival already have the edge, but I'll end with saying, you're going to have to do much better than what's posted here to win your case.

Mary

Eh, a good point, but trying to win an argument is the first sign of being wrong, at least in matters of this depth. Yes, one can prove certain shapes and materials are best suited to making a hammer, and hitting a nail in a certain way is the best to drive it, but that is far too simple to draw a comparison to matters as those we currently discuss. We're talking about gargantuan things here that require so many little facts that an assumption of being correct on the whole without knowing every single tiny piece, which is impossible without understanding the whole, is deadly poison. Further, when discussing matters of this depth, there is a natural inclination to go even deeper, as the more answers we find, the more questions are spawned from, revealing themselves necessary to answering the original question. That the original question itself was flawed.

Mary,

The original posting is a verbatim presentation of the entire article as it appeared in the newspaper. I presented it that way because of the emotional effect that presentation had, after the city had effectively shut down celebration of Halloween the year before. Chilling effect.

I felt the bare presentation of the article was itself a 'found poem' worth sharing. The responses on this thread have mostly confirmed my understanding of the material on an aesthetic level.

All of my poetry is experimental in nature.

amo,

Peter

WOW, that is scary, Peter. A scary poem for Halloween.

Percival, I disagree. You have to start somewhere and you have to care enough to want to win, or at least get your point across well or nothing can be changed. It takes a village sometimes and for the people who aren't directly affected, the view you express would lend to sitting back and doing nothing. What really gets me is that we don't have any problem rushing into other countries to solve their problems and give the aid, while so much is broken here, including many good people.

Mary

Perhaps I was unclear. My meaning was that one should not seek to shelter themselves with preconceptions. Not cling to their current views as absolutes, only seeking confirmation of those ideas while spurning contrary evidence. That we are too stupid, that life is too large, for us be completely correct about damn near anything. My point was that this must be taken into consideration as we strive for improvement. And that we should not be discouraged by this, but wary.

We can hear the nightwatchman
click his flashlight
ask himself
if it's him or them
who's in-sane.

First of all, Pete, appologize for the very condesending tone of "you have responded as well as you can...."
Mary, how much damage has been done, and how much percieved to your niece, perhaps brought on by some paranoia that has nothing in reality to do with the police? When did they last harass her? Or have they?

Peter, when we were kids, our contemporarys cut eyeholes in paper bags, drew what they thought were scary faces on them, hung on as many black rags as they could find and went out to trick or treat. The real monsters of the day would put soap on people's widows, never occuring to any of us future mensa members that soap washes off pretty easily. And the teenage monsters of the day tossed the eggs their mother's were planning to sell at the younger kids. When the nice old folks opened their door to a bunch of ragamuffins with bags, they said "EEEEK" and handed out homemade popcorn balls. The kids that didn't get run over because they couldn't see out of their masks, and were wearsing so much black the motorists couldn't see them, (given the legal status of DWI in those days) went home and ate the popcorn ball Mrs. Swartz had given them, unless their older brother stole said popcorn ball.

In the 70's I got drunk and moved to California. I lived near Monterey and sprayed artichokes around Castroville. The nice ol' Mrs. Swartz at the end of our street was arrested one halloween forcause she had slipped a few Gillette blue blade razor blades into the apples she was handing out. A couple of kids wound up in the hospitial.

It has deterirated since then. Now happy young couples hand out drug laced pogybait, and kids get disappeared under overpasses. Yes Virginia, there is a boogyman. Nice old men offer little kids "lollypops" When my 14 year old sister got a lollypop from her boyfriend, it was a piece of candy on a paper stick. Today it is an item that is in most male trousers. Little kids again disappear in lollypop land. Windows are broken, cars damaged beyond repair, people hurt and many other things that we have learned to do to each other.

If no one had ever slew anyone, there would not be a law against murder. therefore:

I submit, Pete, with whom I am going to disagree on most things, that the city, nor the gestapo have not stolen halloween, I submit that by our own amoral behavior, we have given it away.

Allow me to add that if you and I were voting on the patriot act, it would be Yeas 0 Nays 2. I hate to agree with you, but the few times you are right, you are in fact right. This is one of those times.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2022 04:20PM by Merc.

Now see, Marty, these two big burly men, as humble as they strive to be, are driven by a deep need to be perceived as correct by themselves and others. But is the substitute, artificial, deluded sense of being right an acceptable alternative? No, no it's certainly not. I can tell myself I'm a divine God of Licorice and Dildos, but until and when I obtain a supernatural ability to summon and command dildos and licorice to do my bidding at will, I'm just a guy who happens to own a suspicious amount of dildos.

Now, perhaps I'm incorrect in my estimations, my imagination that they are, at this moment, spiritually attempting to piss all over each other with smiles on their faces and open arms. And I'm willing to accept that given evidence. But, what if I were to prefer being perceived as right rather than actually right? Why, I might use any number of persuasive tactics to convince people of my views, and should I happen to have some proficiency in this, I might start myself a cult, I might do anything number of things that are my fancy. Anyway, where was I.. Ah. You two can save your tantrums till someone actually does something worthy of it. Till then, relax.

Thanks Mr. P for the last sentence in paragraph 1

the best laugh I've had in a week

Terry,
How much damage has been done? I don't think there's a meter available that can measure levels of human dignity. Paranoia is not one of her mental problems, although she has many. She didn't always, though. For the first seventeen years of her life, before becoming ill, she was the sweetest,smartest, most loving, and beautiful girl you'd ever want to meet. Her smile and laughter would light the room. She wouldn't tell a lie, hurt a fly, or do one single thing to cause anybody an ounce of trouble. She went to church, took dance classes, ran in track, was voted best dressed in school, and thought all the boy crazy girls acted silly. She started working at 15 and mostly enjoyed buying gifts for others with the money she earned.

Since being diagnosed 13 years ago, she's battled problems with addictions, eating disorders, self mutilation, poverty, and homelessness and all that goes along with those. She's been in jail greater than five, but I think less than ten times. Her last incarceration was 15 months ago. No, the police don't seek her out to harass her. She's done plenty to get their attention.

She put her hand through a beautyshop window on the main street in broad daylight and cut her hand all to hell one time. It seems she was out of shampoo, conditioner, AND money. They followed the blood trail across the street to her apartment where they found her washing her hair with a severed tendon.

When she drinks, especially on top of her psyche meds, she gets belligerant and can be combative. Her last incarceration was for putting her boyfriend up against a fence because he stold a $100 bill from her that was supposed to go towards paying her fines. The people with him that were fixin' to woop it up with her cash, took a picture of the altercation on their cell phone and called the police. The boyfriend is a little bit of a thing who I think is mentally ill as well. He doesn't work, nor get disability, but has lived with her for two years now and they share the $605/month disability check she gets. There's a part of her that thinks they aren't good for one another (dah!), but she doesn't kick him out because he's her best friend, he doesn't have anywhere else to go and she thinks everybody should have what they need and a place to go, and she thinks he looks like the Lamb of God.

The day we talked about this, she mentioned a time when she was arrested in Florida. I wasn't there and don't know exactly what was going on. She was probably high, combative, angry, belligerant, or whatever. The police were probably doing what they were trained to do to get the handcuffs on or something. But she said her head hit hard against the cement and, that at that moment, it was like all the joy and carefreeness she knew as a child was knocked out of her and has never come back.

She talked about how each and every time they take you in, you have to strip naked in front of them...they slide a dish of food to you like a dog....you have to sleep on the floor sometimes next to a sweating toilet (the drunk tank I dunno?)...and that each time, they pick up your life and set it over here like this and it isn't your life anymore, but there's. She talked about teaching our children not to murder, but then murdering people in the electric chair. She talked about the guards sitting with their feet up on the desk eating cheeseburgers. She also talked about the treatment she's witnessed of others. She felt bad for a male friend of hers who is gay, very docile, funny, and nice (but who apparently broke the law), getting thrown in with a bunch of rough and tumble guys.

I don't know, Terry. It just made me think of the witch hunts. At that time, I'm sure hanging those people was thought to be the right and "just" thing to do.
There are certainly maniacs out there who commit heinous crimes and who need to be taken off the streets. And I'm grateful for the brave people who risk their lives to keep us safe. Our prisons and jails are busting at the seams, however, and I'm not sure that the punishments are fitting the crimes. And to handle those with mental illness like criminals is sort of a crime in and of itself. It really does add insult to injury and kick a man when he's already down.

Mary

Dear Abby,

please forgive me for be'en an ordinary person sensitive to extra-ordinary changes in the environment. I have always been suspicious of changes in my cages.

Love,

Your son, Esther.

btw, Merce, I pologize. love, Peter

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2022 11:58PM by petersz.

Come now, I preformed the miracle of getting Johnny to reply in a coherent manner, using a full sentence even. If he thinks I was attempting harmless humor, you all should be at ease. We're all bored and dying, how about some more fuel for the fire of this conversation?

This is far and away one of the calmest conversations Peter and I have ever had. Folks are hiding behind the furniture waiting for us to start throwing things.

Bottom line, it's bad out there folks, and it'd be a war zone without the police.

The very nature of the job will harden and skeptisize anyone. I don't know if it attracks pycopaths, or if they become such due to the nature of the business. I have a good friend in law enforcement, (border patrol) he is of the opinion that all Mexican nationals are drug running border jumping sociopaths with destruction of the human race on their minds. That is the faction of the Mexican national population he sees. I leave about half a million dollars worth of property in Mexico under the direction of Mexican nationals and have never lost a penny that I can spot.

Like most in this country I have had encounters with the law. In every case save one, they have been very courteous, and just gone about their jobs of writing me a ticket, or whatever I had coming. Thrice it has resulted in me spending a few hours in custody. Twice in a cell.

Yes, one is told to strip in front of them. That's because bad guys hide weapons, drugs, etc. in places you wouldn't hide a kleenex. The facitlities are not the Waldorf, nor even a 10 cent a night flop house. That's because the tax payers are a little tired of buying something better to have the bad guys tear it up. The guard sits with his feet on the desk eating a doughnut. What would you have him do? Pace back and forth in front of your cell perhaps. They take away your belt, acuase some folks hang themselves with their belts.

One of the big problems is not the police, it's the judges. Makes a cop's job impossible.

Most cops in cities probably do get a bit phycopathic. They drag innocent people out of the bashed in side of cars when a drunk hits them. They cover dead children in the streets where they should be playing baseball, and go tell their drugged up mothers that junior won't be home for supper, and see that she doesn't care. Or worse yet, mom is sober and does care. They find some worthless piece of feces destroying and stealing property that someone has worked for and tried to build, only to see them back on the street stealing again before the paperwork is done. They arrest someone for beating another human being, only to see them back on the street before the vicitm gets to the hospitial, and tomorrow, they have to meet a board for arresting the poor perp too violently. I know myself pretty well. If I were a cop in a city, I'd be doing life without parole. How's that for phycopath?

Mary

The treating mental illness like a crime thing IS a crime. You can blame my least favorite president and my favorite president for the situation that led to this. Carter (his adminsitration) decided it was "inhuman" to keep the mentally ill locked up against their will... (read hospitials) so they unlocked the doors. The people in there were by definition not able to make sane decisions, so they walked out into the streets. Enter Ragen.. the places were mostly empty, so he cut the funding for them and now the doors are locked again, from the outside.
Now the folks like your niece who needs help can't get it. The alternative, which is not a good one by any standards is jail.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2022 10:24AM by Merc.

Eh, don't get me wrong Merc, I'm saying we're all crazy, just that we all have different symptoms of the same illness. We don't understand ourselves, can't even keep our individual selves sane, and so how can we interact with each other and expect order? Further, so many people want to throw out their opinions as facts, which often results in others taking up those poorly constructed concepts, acting on them, and getting themselves even more crazy. We've got our animal instincts to contend with, the enormity of trying to organize our thoughts of the outside world with the internal, general fragility and inconsistencies of the conscious mind, the seemingly instinctive urge to self deceive, thousands of years of old mistakes piling up, the endless mystery and dangers without and within, and the looming thought of death. And the only things keeping us alive, we don't understand. Rock and a hard place. Lose, lose.

But, again, I'm not saying this should dishearten us, that we should think life is insurmountable and forfeit. After all, things can always get worse. Should we lose our feeble grips for the briefest time, life tends to take back, cause pain, so on. And granted, inevitable death is an unknown which complicates all calculations when choosing a course of action, but I personally regard it as an unknown and nothing more. I possess neither evidence of it being positive nor negative, so I focus on what I can quantify and understand though never ignoring it's eventuality.

I remember when that happened, Terry. Things were pretty wild for a long time after, but I'll give credit to local agencies that do a pretty good job with in home oversight now. Things are actually more stable for her since a judge ordered her to stay put because she used take off and roam the countryside. Workers see her everyday, give her her meds etc. They've helped a great deal, especially during times when I just couldn't handle being a part of her life.

My mother adopted she and her sister when they were 7 & 8 years old because their father was mentally ill and their mother was a drug addicted hooker. She lived with me for three years during her teens after my mom had suffered a heart attack. I recently became her representative payee and helped her get a nicer apartment nearby, etc. She's closer to being herself than she's been in a long time. Tonight we went shopping and she told me she finally told her friend he had to take his things and go stay at his uncle's house. We've been trying to get her to do that for quite a while now.

Who knows, maybe Peter's little poem and all our conversing and thoughts on the subject put some good carma on the situation, like a giant prayer or something. I know just having all of you helps me, and if I'm doing ok, I can be of more help to her. So thanks Peter, Terry, Percival, and Johnny for the good conversation and friendship....dildos and all! And like Percy said, it's a miracle! Johnny talked.

Love you all.

Mary

Love you all.

Mary

ditto,

Peter

The hope is to hear what people think.

PSZ

You know, Marty, as I enjoy divulging, I am not entirely sane myself. I do this because, as I say, I prefer facing my problems than allowing them to fester. Now, part of my self repair has been discussing with as many people as I can, in as much detail as I can, their personal conditions, both normal and abnormal. This has given me more information to manipulate, more numbers to crunch, toward the solution to my own problems. I've spoken to a variety of people in a variety of ways, always looking for the pieces within that cause us to tick. At this very moment, I'm discussing such things with a young man who, since a young child, believed himself stupid, unworthy, blah, blah. In his teens he did a number or rather hard drugs, he has intimacy issues, suffers from hallucinations, OCD, mild schizophrenia, horrible self esteem, inattention, blah, blah. Over the period of a few months now under my guidance, he's improved dramatically and, by my estimation, is on the path to complete recovery.

Point being, when I find someone willing to discuss such things, I rarely pass up the chance. I'd be interested into talking to this girl, I imagine useful information derived from. In return, I'd attempt to help her in any way I see possible. However. Do not assume I can do anything, or that I'm even capable of doing anything. I'm in no way trained for this, I just happen to continue succeeding down this path. Now, should you be interested, you and I would naturally have a long discussion to outline my intentions, your expectations, blah, blah, blah, before anything can begin. Also, I may be able to get you in contact with the young man I mentioned, should he be willing. Oh, my methods of approach are those of self reflection. Monitoring and moving the internal thoughts and emotions, essentially meditation though I don't like to use the word as some associate it with mystical none sense.

If you're not interested, no skin off my back. I'm more than used to people being uneasy when covering such matters.

Confirmed, he's willing.

Mary.

There are many who will say that using drugs is a victimless crime.

Let them come to Berlin.

Thanks, Peter. It's all food for the soul.


Percival, I enjoy the same and am always glad to find others who not only are willing, but who don't find it strange or distasteful.

With that said, I'm not inclined to want to bring "the girl" into any additional situations whereby other people express or imply they have the answers for her or can guide her to wellness. She already feels to be in the hands of too many people and has more than her share of those eager to shed their wisdom upon her.
But who knows, maybe next time I'm headed for trouble, I'll rattle your chain. Thanks.

Terry,
I'm a little slow on the uptake. Not sure what you're saying about using drugs, nor the reference to Berlin. Comprende?

Mary

Yes, certainly, I can imagine. Keep it in mind however, and I can send you to that young man none the less to gain further information on the situation any time you like, as well generally explaining myself for the nuts of it, I find the saner I become, the more bored I get. Take me for a test run, if you will.

As to Merc's comment on Berlin, though I only have the vaguest notion from tiny bits of information, it seems the german youth in the wake of WWII are a rather aimless bunch who, shall we say "celebrate" life rather heartily if not recklessly. Please, if you will Merc, fill me in.

Mary was talking about a neice who was the child of a drug user, and she is screwed up. Drugs=victimless crime... Let them come to Berlin... Kennedy's statement in Berlin about not understanding until you've walked in those shoes.
"There are those who say the communist world and the free world can live in peace, Let them come to Berlin"

Drugs are a victimless crime, until you become a victim of drug use.

peter,

i'm late to this. i enjoy found poetry, and i liked this one you shared with us. it is true i haven't lived in san francisco, so i can't know first hand the fear in your streets. i read this poem more as a reflection of the people in san francisco having gotten out of hand far too many times and so a more militant polce action has resulted. which is the cause and which is the effect? it's easy to confuse the two. we each read the poem based on our own experiences. in my experience, i've been thankful beyond thankful to see an armed policeman unholster his pistol during a situation where grave harm was iminent.

when i worked for years as a safety director for a large trucking company that hauled the biggest and heaviest loads in our country- my hands were often tied when it came to letting a dangerous driver go. FIRST i had to let him have an accident, to bring harm to property/persons before i could justify (to others who ruled over me) letting him go.

if i chose the alternative-which was to let him go before he caused the harm to others, i risked strong criticism for not doing my job. in fact, i risked legal action. this became an impossible situation for me. i could not do my job (ensuring public safety) well anymore.

public safety is a fine-tuned balancing act. many times there are no Sure Things. When a section of public safety loses that balance, then yes we need to address this. it sounds to me that you are sharing with us that the san francisco police have lost that balance. this is not the case everywhere.


mary,

as far as mental health issues go in our country, as merc has already said, our nation suffers because we have not addressed this issue adequately. this is not the fault of the police. the policeman is the one person who places himself between me and perceived harm. each of us could spend a lifetime (as perc has indicated already) with developing a firm grasp on what would be best for each mentally unhealthy individual- how then can we charge such immediate expertise to the man in the blue uniform?

i've been in a situation a couple times with a very messed up young man- our court system can't figure out what to do with him and so he is released time and time again to the streets....ironically, this then turns into an issue for the armed policeman to figure out. what to do with a drugged-up insane 19 year old intent on beating down my front door? (a 19 year old who isn't my son.) how long does the policeman wait, how much harm does he allow the 19 year old cause, how many threats can the 19 year old make before the policeman feels he is justified in "doing something"?

merc,

i totally agree about drugs not being a victimless crime. the fabric of our society is ripping to shreds because of this. add up what a drug habit costs and then look around ---where does the money come from to support such a habit? ask anyone who runs a pawn shop or the ER department of a hospital. ask anyone who works at the charity clinics, the women's shelter, the food banks, the morgue...

but if you ask the wife or the son or the daughter about the ripple effect of dad doing drugs, they probably will keep their silence. we are a silent society in this regard,but that doesn't mean the harm is...uh...harmless. just as you've said, come to berlin. see how it is from the inside.

red,

Thanks for responding to the poem. In fact, San Francisco is a pleasant, enjoyable place to live in. Walking the streets or partying or visiting with friends and strangers feels at least as safe 99.9% of the time as Philadelphia, Boston, New Market, New Hampshire, West Lafayette, Indiana...or any of the other place I have lived. But the last few years there has been a noticeable increase in the large numbers of police officers at public gatherings and even sometimes just during the day when nothing is happening. Halloween, street fairs, etc. are just examples of situations I have witnessed in the last five years when the enormous increase in police has been a disruptive, disturbing presence. I actually watch the police in waves of twenty or thirty policemen clear the sidewalks after a beautiful, peaceful festival in which there was no public disturbance whatsoever, turning the neighborhood people into a huddled, frighted populace.

It is the overkill I am most concerned with...which is what the article signaled they were going to do on Halloween last.

My feelings about individual policemen is more mixed. I am aware of both the safety issues and the risks a police person faces.


Thirty cops on a sidewalk is a quantitatively different experience from the presence of the cop on the beat.

I appreciate your responding to the actual posting as a found poem.

amo,

Peter

Silence indeed. And where have you been Red?

hi mr p-

i've been to the LA area, san diego, tijuana, las vegas (frowny face thingy), denver, and oregon in the last little bit of time. and then starting this month i decided to do the nanowrimo writing project (national novel writing month or something like that) of pledging to write 50,000 words towards a novel that i once promised my kids i'd write. i'm up to 13000 words and starting to stall.

but i see you've all been carrying on a great conversation/debate. please, continue...

One person can't have a conversation, and things get stale when we all run out of ideas, why don't you throw something in? Might be just what you need for inspiration. And, as I said, I'm direly bored.

Therer you go again, assuming. First, San Francisco cannot be a pleasant place to live. If I took the dogs out in my underwear, and shot a rabbit while I was putting them in their pens, I'd meet some of the cops you praise so elequently. When is the last time you sat in a hot tub, nude in your own back yard and watched Orion cross the western sky? Next, you assume that you cannot have a conversation when only one person is present. That is a falsehood of the first magnitude. Not only do I oft converse with myownselfie, but don't always know what the guy's going to say.

Now I never said San was a bad place to live, and I don't have access to a hot tub. If I did I would live in it. And certainly one can have quite a bit of things to do with one's self, which more people should look into, but conversation implies other people. I try to steer away from split personalities talking to each other, not a very productive line of thought, that. But I fear, if you want my full attention, you will have to offer in kind.

I misswrote.. what I tried to say was San Franscisco CANNOT be a pleasant place to live. What If I want my horse to mow my grass for me this week? Evil on 42nd and Eplanade.
I'm not quite as niave as Crock Dundee. He said, "Eight million people on one town, got to be the friendliest place on earth"
I lived in Denver one winter whilst I attended a radio repair school.. We were in an apartment. I knew no one else in the building. where I live, it's 1/4 mile to the nearest neighbor, I know and like everyone within a mile. All six of them.

Conversations can be had with dogs, horses, and cows, but not sheep, cause they're too dumb.

i'm a country person, too. everytime i travel to california and spend time in the cities there, someone always says to me "you are not from around here, are you"....at first i assume it is my montana accent that tips them off, but no no, it is not that. when i ask why they think i am not from "here", they tell me it is because i look them in the eye when i talk to them and (gasp) that i am friendly.

the longer my b/f lives in that environment down there, the less open and friendly he becomes. maybe, too many people being all friendly at once would be sensory overload...??

i've never met a cow i didn't like. but that has nothing to do with anything. i've just always wanted to say that outloud.

red,

Maybe I can live in the city so easily because 'i look them in the eye when i talk to them and (gasp) ... i am friendly.' When I came back out into society in 2002 I made a point of talking with a stranger at my local cafe once every week, getting so many people who come in now know they can sit at my table and talk or not talk, take care of their business without being disturbed, share the new book their having published or their plans to ride a motorcycle along the Silk Road or know their privacy will be respected...etc.

I can also say that on the street I am never acosted by strangers or neighbors, no matter what part of the city I visit, because 'i look them in the eye when i talk to them and (gasp) ... i am friendly.'

I have lived in the country and in small towns and do not have a city dwellers set of cliched complaints about that either. I love the country and admire it that others can live their preferred lives there.

My home has always been where I was at the moment...and I am hospitable to those who wish to share it. I respect Merc take, and yours too, red, but generalizations about the in-hospitality of the city simply do not wash for person like me whose lived in em most of his life...and, yes, some of my best converstions have also been with dogs and cats and even sparrows.

amo all,

Peter

Are you trying to confuse me Merc? whisperits workingwhisper

Speaking of country, every now in then I get a question in my head that won't leave me until I find the solution. One I've been carrying for somewhere near a decade now is the question of cow-tipping. I think it might be an urban legend. I ask around, no one says they've pulled it off. Also, I tried once, those damn cows don't sleep.

peter,

as open minded for which you seem to pride yourself, you do generalize at times. for instance, your take on the police does not hold water in other parts of our country. you are sharing your specific experiences. and yet when we tell you that this is not entirely the case, you insist you know otherwise.

now, when i share with you how it feels to be a country girl in a city that generally cannot look me in the eye, you point out that this is not your own individual experience. true enough, but do you see that i was showing you how a generalized statement feels in reverse? you chided me for cliche complaints. ah, so very interesting.

it is my take on this that when you apply your specific experience to my generalized statement, surely you are then in a position to understand and accept that your generalized statement regarding police does not necessarily relate to my specific experiences. it works both ways.

value what you value- i applaud that. but recognize the times when you take your specific experiences and ask that we acknowledge that they represent a generalized experience for the rest of us.

and now before i completely chase my tail on this, i'll bid you a pleasant evening. wherever you are, whatever you do, whomever you talk to.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2021 02:08AM by redmitten.

touche.

I admit to a double-standard regarding generalization. It has always been a weakness of my presentations of my views that I'll allow myself to make them but challenge others when I think they are making them. Also, sorry about the snide-ness of the 'cliche' comment. I have noticed I've gotten kind of arrogant the last few years. Anyway, thanks for putting up with me. I know it would not be sensible for me to expect everyone to adopt my personal distrust of the police. The article in the paper that started this thread just seemed very stark to me in the attitude it presented.

cheers, red..have a pleasant rest,

Peter

I got out of a Russian made airplane in some small town in the former USSR state of Georgia. I was met by three very armed policemen who didn't know we were coming. They were miffed that their superiors didn't think it improtant to tell them that a couple of Yankees, a Brit, two Irishmen and a Chilian were inbound to their not quite fair city. They were very miffed that we were flying Russian registered, made airplanes without Russian pilot certificates. (Im not sure Russians have pilot certificates, I think it might be a military rating). They were miffed that we had not called the tower for permission to land. The fact that there was not tower did not enter the euqation. The fact that the airport had been closed for a few months and we landed on a "highway" eluded them.

NOW, there's a hoard of cops in one spot. Three guys can easily surround twelve, if they put their minds to it. It all got calmed down when they discovered we had brought in about sixty thousand pounds of food for their starving cousins, and we weren't going to take any money out of town. Having one Irishman who can speak South Eastern Georgian, or what ever they were talking sure can come in handy.

I'm not too nervous about US of A cops, nor Her Majesty's Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Never been shot by one. That's a good thing. 'Sides, holloween is over for this year. Let's get the Sherrif's Dept riled up for Thanksgiving! We can start by stealing turkeys.