must almost successfully resist the intellect."



Post Edited (04-11-05 00:36)

That's the definition of a (good) puzzle, but not necessarily what one wants in a poem. I look for wisdom, insight and/or wit. That is to say, a successful poem must have one or more of those attributes.

Bestiality's advocates quote
A motto that's worthy of note:
When vacationing France,
Unbutton your pants,
And remember, "Chacun a son goat".

Hugh,

My lead in brings you to the puzzle. Why am I not surprised? I like that objection. It brings me more to the koan, which I take to overflow with the "insight/or wit" you suggestion for a poem. I can't quite remember where I got the quote itself.

Thanks for the obhection.

Peter

a poem is a relation between a world and a reader

as
a bird is a relation
between the sky
and a tree

so
a biard
is how a tree skys

a biard is how
a woird typos

a beard is how
a chin grows

must almost successfully resist the intellect

I think therefore I spam... no not good for poetry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I feel therefore I shower the page with gentle warmth from within.

Ahhh, much better.

I think it may be Stephen Mallarme.

Speaking of insight, I got a copy of Braided Creek by Ted Kooser and Jim Harrison from the library on Saturday. Quite a slim tome, with a $15.00 price tage on the back cover. Seemed a lot for so few pages, but many of them had wisdom to impart. Haiku-like aphorisms all:


How one old tire leans up against
another, the breath gone out of both.

What is it the wind las lost
that she keeps looking for
under each leaf?

Rain clouds gone,
and muddy paw prints
on the moon.

Come to think of it,
there's no reason to decide
who you are.

I prefer the skyline
of a shelf of books.

How evil all priesthoods.
All over the earth Holy Places
soaked with extra blood.

Today a pink rose in a vase
on the table.
Tomorrow, petals.

He does sound like a fine poet. Thanks for stopping in.

Peter

said Wallace Stevens

Fragment: "A sentence fragment is a clause or phrase that does not form a complete sentence but is punctuated as though it does. Fragments are often used in informal correspondence or fiction, particularly in dialogue to communicate halting speech. In formal writing, however, they should be rewritten as complete sentences or attached to another related sentence."


clair·voy·ance - noun

1.The supposed power to see objects or events that cannot be perceived by the senses.

"resist the intellect"


I'd like to see that in context. (I looked, but only found it paraphrased in an essay about T.S. Eliot.)

I do NOT think that poems need to be DIFFICULT in order to be good. But I do appeciate poetry that can't be COMPLETELY grasped by the intellect alone.

Hugh,

The Elements of Style, by Strunk and White, suggests we adher to any rule of writing only if it does not interfer with clear communication. I do not cansider writing in an internet chat forum 'formal writting'.

Marian,

It's at least fifteen years since I read the line originally. I agree that difficulty in writing ought not to be sought for its own sake, except for the fun of it. Surely, there are many poems of both kinds, simply and clear or varoque and rich. I like Pound and Stevens and Ciockinson for their richness, but I like the simplicity of technique (or at least end product) in Creeley or Patchen.

Helen Vendler wrote and essay a while back in which she tried to maintain that the twentieth century was either the POund Era or the Stevens Era. I don't think a choice has to be made because there is such diversity in excellent poetry. I think the same could be said between difficult or not-so-difficult poetry.

I brought up the sentiment concerning difficult poetry becaue it seems the more common assumption, that bood poetry must be simple and clear to the understanding, is so widely held thatyoung readers get the inmpression that it's just fine to toss a poem aside if they just find 'too dificult.'

I think much in poetry (andin life) is worth wrestling with.

Thank you so much Hugh for your help with my spelling It has been a boondoggle that has hogswallowed me for all of my life. I do enjoy casual convesation on the internet though. Sometimes my typos annoy even me.

Time is of the essence.

Petr

"must almost successfully resist the intellect."

I think the emphasis is on "almost successfully".

I don't think it is about "difficult" poems. Not all simple poems are easy to understand. Or at least understand intelectually.

Neither are all difficult poems good.

I think a good poem is always bordering between rational and irrational, apollinian and dionysiac. "Poetry is a centaur." A similar concept is that of "duende". "A misterious power that all feel, but no philosopher explains." ("Poder misterioso que todos sienten y que ningún filósofo explica.") In my opinion every good poem has that something that cannot be expressed in words, other then by the poem itself. A poem that can be turned into an essay may be a nice poem, even a good one, but it has no necessity to be a poem.

On the other hand there are poems that are just too hermetic. If a poem is not open (at least just a little bit) to receive a reader, it is not a poem yet. Poetry is, after all, a tribal art. There is a difference between difficult and sealed off.

Or maybe I just don't have the right keys to some of the poems :-)
------


Yoryis Pavlópoulos
MASTER KEYS

Poetry is an open door
Many look inside without seeing
anything and pass on. But some do
see something, something catches their eye
and fascinated they make to enter.
Then the door closes. They knock but no one
opens the door. They search for the key.
No one knows who has it. Sometimes
they even waste their whole lives
looking for the secret to open it.
They construct master keys. They do their best.
The door does not open again. It has never opened
for those who could see into the depths.
Perhaps the poems which have been written
since the world has existed
are an endless string of master keys
for us to open the door of Poetry.

But Poetry is an open door.

(Translated by Margaret Kofod )



Post Edited (05-02-05 15:08)

It's no good, if you can't eat it.

says who???

So what is your take on the quote?
What makes a good poem in your opinion?

Interesting poem, Veronika; thanks for posting it. It reminds me of one of Carl Sandburg's definitions of poetry: "Poetry is the opening and closing of a door, leaving those who look through to guess about what is seen during a moment."

TANDY CONTRIBUTED: one of Carl Sandburg's definitions of poetry: "Poetry is the opening and closing of a door, leaving those who look through to guess about what is seen during a moment."

That's fabulous, Tandy - thank you!

And that's a good way to explain my personal take on what ART is (not just poetry) - a glimpse of something, not the thing itself.

CRAFT (again, my personal view) is the thing itself. It is possible to create one perfect wrought iron banister with a Greek motif.

ART is an effort to portray, in one medium, a thing (or moment, or idea) that is experienced beyond the sensory level. There is therefore no such thing as a "perfect" work of art, but a successful work of art is one that props Sandburg's DOOR open for a moment.

Hi Lisa great to se you on my thread check some of my poems will ya. The quote's from Walllace Stevens, and it is indefence, I think, of the difficulty of the terriffic poetry he writes which is NOT easy to read, but is wonderfully beautiful in trully profound, not pseudo-profound. Hope to see your tag around more often. send poetry, am starved

Peter

I am the butterfly at the edge of the abyss



Post Edited (05-03-05 21:02)

useful distinction Marion-NYC. something for us to think about.

Peter

"The ant's a centaur
in his dragon world. . . "

E. Pound in The Pisan Cantos



Post Edited (05-03-05 23:08)

Two things: a profoundly intuitive experience and a mastery of the minutist iota of craft involved in making the poem out of the experience makes a good poem. not mere passion and not pedantry



Post Edited (05-04-05 01:48)