I have some concerns about newbies on all of these discussion forums.

How difficult and/or feasible would it be to put an introductory page on this site, or at least a link to this page, which would help FIRST time posters to better know some unwritten rules about what and how to post on each of the forums?

Something such as this:

ALL FORUMS:

1. This site is for lovers of poetry. We do not allow profanity, or personal tirades against fellow forum members. Monitor yourselves so we don't have to erase your posts.

2. When posting on any of the forums use the NEW topic tab above your post. Always type in a SUBJECT that specifically relates to your topic.

3. Keep your posts in the correct area, do not post queries about forgotten poems in the General Discussion area or Homework Assistance forum. Do not post new poems in the General Discussion forum.

4. Do not monopolize the board. Keep your posts to a maximum of 2 or 3 a day so others can get the readership they, too deserve.

5. Log in and use a valid e-mail address so that other forum members may contact you and so that you may use the post-edit feature of e-mule.

GENERAL DISCUSSION:

1. This site is for discussions about poetry. Practically anything goes, but it should have some general literary validity.

2. Do not post your own poetry on this forum, use the User Submitted Poetry forum for that.

3. Refrain from profanity, besides a word filter these posts are monitored to keep vulgar language off this site.

4. Do not post a new topic at the bottom of someone else's thread. Start a new topic of your own if you have one to discuss.

HOMEWORK ASSISTANCE:

1. Make sure that you begin a NEW topic for each of your questions. Do not use someone else's thread to ask a new question, even if it involves the same author, and or poem.

2. Use the search feature on this site to search for a topic which may have been discussed here before.

3. Give yourself and your topic time to get some response/s. Don't expect that a late Sunday evening question will be answered before your Monday morning class.

4. Do not use the other forums on this site for homework questions.

5. Be sure to title your questions specifically so that forum experts may zero in on topics about which they are familiar.

LOST POETRY QUOTATIONS

1. Do not post questions about lost lines on the General Discussion forum.

2. Use the search feature on this site to find your quotation, especially if you know the author of the line.

3. Give the experts plenty of time to help you find the quote. Most forum members work and may not have time to check their sources to help you.

4. Use what you know about the source of information about your quote. If you read it in school, what book was it taken from. Is the teacher, or librarian who supplied the book able to give you any information? Sometimes any clue as to the author may help solve your mystery.

USER SUBMITTED POETRY

1. Use this site for poetry you have written. Make sure each poem has its own title which should be the subject line of your post.

2. Be courteous to other forum members. Respond to their poetry in a tone and manner in which you hope they will respond to your work.

3. Do not post more than 2 or 3 poems a day. This will allow your readers to give each poem the attention it deserves. It will also allow poems already on the board time to get the readers they deserve.

4. Avoid vulgarity. Besides an obscene word filter, these posts are monitored to keep profane language off this site.


Every item listed here has been a concern of myself and other forum members in the past year. To me having a page such as this linked to the home page makes more sense than attaching works of art.

I'm not against the art work mind you, I just think these matters are more practical concerns of the forum members than that.


Les



Post Edited (04-27-04 15:37)

LG, there have been a number of lengthy discussions of the "rules" of the forum, and every time we go round the same issues and end up with more or less the same conclusions:

RULES merely invite rule-breaking. As soon as you say "no profanity"--someone will post a load of filth just to see what happens. Plus, when you make rules about courtesy, somebody has to enforce them. As for tirades: IGNORING THEM is the only thing that has ever succeeded in making them go away. In short, when it comes to WHAT people post, freedom of expression trumps everything else.

Now, as to WHETHER and WHERE people post... IT CAN BE DAUNTING FOR BEGINNERS to post at all; anything that makes them think they might post "wrong" only makes it harder. But IT'S EASY TO MOVE A QUERY from the bottom of one thread to the top of another thread--which is a very encouraging way of teaching the newcomer where "the top" is. If you see an interesting new idea way down an old thread, just let Stephen know and he'll promote it. So here -- and LG, here I am just filling you in on a couple of years of experience on this forum -- welcoming-ness trumps protocol.

Like you, I DO WISH that people would write meaningful subject lines ("POEM ABOUT OLD LADY IN QUEBEC" instead of "LOST POEM"), but I'm not willing to post instructions from "us" to "you" just to get better subject lines. And if someone posts 24 items, I will just have to gird my loins and read less than all of them.

In short, it's a trade-off, and each time it's come up on the forum, consensus ends up favoring tolerance for the sake of the atmosphere it permits.

When Stephen was given Super-Human Powers (X-ray vision, bionic legs, and the power to edit posts), there was a lot of discussion about how to ensure that he would Use Them For Good and Not For Evil. A bunch of frequent participants quickly (and respecfully) reached an easy concensus NOT to make him an enforcer of any kind.

And significantly: Folks who seldom post didn't contribute to the discussion.

Marian, out of curiosity, do you read every post on every forum every day?

I do.

How many times have you e-mailed Stephen telling him about obscene, or inappropriate posts?

I do that as a matter of course. Simply because I don't believe in the statement: "It's not my job."


The concerns I have about the site are strictly MY opinions. I don't expect cooperation or corroboration by any other forum members.

I agree tolerance is the best policy. But I disagree wholeheartedly with the theory that "stumbling through the maze" is the fastest way to the cheese.

If Newbies knew in advance that they were going to be zapped by using profanity, they might not try it 4 or 5 times. Profanity doesn't offend me, I merely feel it is inappropriate on a site that many use as an educational resource.

I also think that if there was an instruction page on the site, some of the posts, like those which are tacked on to the bottom of some unrelated homework assignment might find their way to the top before the assignment date is past.

Les

p.s. Here's Bruce Fader's Poetry Site, he has all kinds of instructions. It doesn't seem to dampen the enthusiasm.

[groups.msn.com] />


Post Edited (04-27-04 22:10)

As a new person here, I'd appreciate it if anyone tells me if i've done something wrong or inappropriate.

Johnny, it's good to know you're concerned. Because of all the youngsters who read these posts, many of us feel strong language is inappropriate. If you are responsible for the same, please clean it up. Otherwise the site monitor will delete your posts. Welcome to e-mule enjoy your stay.

Again, we appreciate your wanting to know what's appropriate here.


Les

Les......the reason I was concerned was that I used the P & V words to describe the male/female anatomy....i didnt consider my usage as profanity.......vulgarity is another issue.....in any case...I'm sure not CURSING...unless ass counts.

Thanks

To my way of thinking, it isn't the precise words used as the intention behind them. Some words are ruder in one part of the world than in another. But slagging someone else off is not polite anywhere.

I don't feel that a few posted rules would hurt anything. Every few weeks we see a new person on the usp who tries to give us their entire volume of work at one time. I would like to see submissions limited to 3 poems weekly. If someone "needs" to post more than that, they could do it on one thread.
As far as profanity is concerned, I hear it at work, on TV, the movies, on radio, in jokes. It is so overdone. I'd rather it didn't interfere with my quiet time here at Emule. But hey, that's just me.

john

I'll stand out here in the middle of the road- with the yellow stripe and all the dead armadillos.

I think that some 'posting guidelines' can be of help. I would recommend throwing the word 'please' about to soften the blow. Maybe we could call them helpful hints instead of rules.

Re- posting to proper forums, I tend to agree with Marian-NYC that people sometimes grab whatever lifeline that they can. Also, the 'Lost Poetry' requires that people log in to post, something that the other forums don't. This may be acting as a barrier.

I read every post on GD, and most, if not all, on HA. I check Lost quotations once or twice a week. I admit it- I don't read all the USP posts, and if I wore a hat, Les, I'd take it off to you.

pam

I'm with you guys (girls). Ok I'll start over. Rules are sometimes necessary but usually only for unprincipled people that can't or won't use common sense. Too much vulgarity and my fingers walk to another site.

If Emule has not made it compulsory to give email address and login, why would you want to enforce such a rule, Les. My concern regarding giving email addresses out over the internet is that Police and Public Information films clearly state that this is unwise and especially for children to do so. Having had my email account hacked into twice now and my personal/bank details tampered with and pornography spammed to me - it really is not something that I personally would wish to do. I do not mind if other people want to give their email addresses I just think that it should not be made compulsory.

I also would consider that correct age and gender should be formally acknowledged. Personally I think that there is something a bit creepy about a 50 year old man posing as an 18 year old school girl.

Furthermore, you are very specific with regards to obscene language although racist and sexist language appears to have been overlooked, is there a reason for this?

Sorry to be so picky, your rules are good stuff - just would like some clarification.


Leicxky

Leicky, we all have our pet peeves. I can see your point about the e-mails. Some home providers are better/worse at this than others. But perhaps guidelines as Pam suggested is a better word than "rules".

The only "rules" on this site are those the moderators of the site are willing to enforce. What I am asking them to do is to consider posting a page of "how to" guidelines on the website.

As far as people posing as something other than what they are, that's where common sense comes in. Simply do not chat with people who refuse to identify themselves if that is a concern of yours.


Les

ROOOLZ!? We don't need no steenking rooolz.

And there is no way to enforce them, in any case.

Hugh, if there is nothing to enforce, why have a moderator?

The fact that Stephen, who I think is great at what he does, would not have been given the job of moderator if Kevin and Rudy felt that there were no standards to enforce.

Really, all I'm asking for here is that they formalize our generally accepted forum standards by posting some guidelines on the site.

Doesn't it bother you to see a question about William Blake tacked on to the bottom of a thread titled "Emily Dickinson's A Bird Came Down the Walk"?

Like I've said above, these are MY concerns, I don't expect or ask for any corroboration.

I would like to hear what the moderator, and Kevin and Rudy have to say on the matter, however.


Les

GUIDELINES

Les, thank you for your advice.

"Simply do not chat with people who refuse to identify themselves if that is a concern of yours."

Unfortunately, such action does nothing to assist the identification of those blatantly intent on existing under assumed identities(age/gender) and prevention of manipulating the board with inferrment and slurring campaigns,
more akin to journalism than poetry. (this is a peeve!!)

People do take racism and sexism seriously these days. I would consider
the political implications of classifying these issues as "pet peeves".

Maybe Hugh is right, no rules are better than murky rules.



Leicxky

LG wrote: "Doesn't it bother you to see a question about William Blake tacked on to the bottom of a thread titled "Emily Dickinson's A Bird Came Down the Walk"? "


Does it BOTHER me? Frankly, no. But it does makes me think that the query may go unnoticed. Sometimes I respond, explaining to the person how to post it as a new topic. Sometimes I ask Stephen to MOVE the question to a new thread.

I assume that someone who posts a Blake question at the bottom of a Dickinson thread JUST DOESN'T KNOW (or thinks you need permission) to start a NEW TOPIC. Probably he or she stumbled on a good discussion and just wanted in, and wouldn't have noticed posted rules anyway.

Maybe Hugh is right, no rules are better than murky rules.

I did not state anything remotely resembling that, licky. I said I favored anarchism on public forums. Opportunities to be rude are not so numerous that any can be given up lightly, ya know.

Personally, I use the 'threaded view.' That makes it easy to reply to the specific question- whether it's about ED or Blake.

pam

Marian, Pam and Hugh. Look at the guidelines I posted above for the Homework Assistance website. Don't you think that they would prevent some of the erroneous postings on that forum? And as John Summers noted, at least every few weeks, we get someone who posts 10 poems at a time on the USP. These things are annoyances to me.

Perhaps I'm hypersensitive to these, but that's my opinion, nevertheless.

Leicky, some people can't be helped. Whether we have spelled out guidelines or not, some people will push the limits. And some people will not be pleased. That's life on the internet.

Les



Post Edited (04-28-04 13:59)

I fold.

I also fold...like a cheap suit !

Les,

Yes, guidelines can help, and I don't object to them, as long as they're phrased in a friendly manner, rather than commandments from on high. In my experience, however, the people most in need of guidelines won't use them. (and if they learn, more people come along who don't know, and so forth) It's a never-ending battle.

I also post to (and am a moderator for) a WWI poetry site. Despite the links to 'how and when to post' and 'how to write an essay,' there are still plenty of postings that show that the people haven't read them.

I would also hate to see the guidelines used as a weapon- 'You posted more than 3 topics to USP- we're zapping them.' 'Sorry- you're not discussing poetry- Zap!' (Hey, I'm often guilty of this one!)

If we do post guidelines, I'd like to see them as an additional link, either on the l discussion forum home page, or in the 'New Topic | Go to Top | Go to Topic | Search | My Profile | Log Out' line.

pam

I agree with you Pam, about not reading the guidelines. Some people are slow learners and some just like to fight the system.

But just as you suggest they could be used to zap somebody who has posted 4 poems at once, which would be foolish. They could also eliminate some people who pester us on the USP by simply stating: Your posts are being deleted by the moderator because your language is inappropriate; read the guidelines.

Les

Hugh

Anarchy is no rules with rue and the 60s are over, Hugh.


Licky

Yes, that would be a good use.

pam

Les and Pam

What constitutes inappropriate language?



Leiky

Les

"Leicky, some people can't be helped. Whether we have spelled out guidelines or not, some people will push the limits. And some people will not be pleased. That's life on the internet."

Thankyou for clarifying. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, sure, and just because everyone is doing it does it make it right?

Leiky

Les,

I could hardly disagree more.

Your profanity is my strong verb - although the OED suggests that profane would not be used in the sense that you choose the word here. In that sense blasphemy might be a better term. Then, of course, blasphemy is in the eye of the religion of the observer. To a Muslim, The Satanic Verses might well be blasphemous: should it not be published?

Semantics aside, the elevation of some overused short words seems to make them more and not less popular. In any event why would a four letter verb for the sex act be offensive and an eight or nine letter word not
be offensive? The overuse of such words demonstrates the paucity of the vocabulary of the user. Nevertheless, I never pick up a literary magazine published by the most eminent universities of the land without detecting a number of four letter words, mostly used appropriately in the context of the common language of today. There is a place in literature for all words. To ban some is akin to book burning: never permissible. Perhaps you would have preferred that Ulysses, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Last Exit From Brooklyn and many many other works had never been published? Like it or not, this is the vocabulary of the young and to ban the usage of such language is to add to its popularity.

Freedom of speech but not of the words chosen seems to be a perverse logic. Personally, I am far more offended by the poor spelling and even worse punctuation on the USP pages.

Commercially, make it difficult and users disappear. I feel sure that Aaron, Kevin and Rudy do not wish to drive traffic away. The last I heard, emule hardly paid its way through advertising and a drop in users because of registration requirements would be unlikely to heal that position?

As Linda so wisely asserted, rules are enjoyed more in the breach by that class of user that is determined to be unpleasant and the best way of dealing with them is to ignore them. A set of rules is hardly likely to improve things.

Were we to have a new board that permits many subsets, then perhaps we might have a variety of boards that allow for serious criticism, light criticism, no 'profanity' and much else that appeals to groups of users. Until then, I continue to believe that moderation, other than for personal insult, racial slurs and so forth, treats adults as children and should be abandoned.

Chesil

Chesil, one question. Do you have children who use the web? As a teacher I would recommend sites such as this, but not if I knew that by accessing this site they would read language which common knowledge considers to be inappropriate. There are no clear cut definitions as to what that language is, but the filter at our local school's office would not permit much of the language I see here occasionally.

As I replied to Marian, the preference is not for myself. I know enough to not comment on poems which offend my sensibilities, but young people do not. Most of the language which is inappropriate is not in the context of art which your post seems to infer, but rather as responses to other forum members from college aged individuals who think it's "cool".

And as I stated at the outset, I do not need or expect anyone else's cooperation in stating my suggestion to Rudy, Aaron, and Kevin. Of course I could go elsewhere, but I don't think that that drastic a move is needed.

Chesil, did you read ALL of the suggested guidelines, or just the first one?
Profanity is a small part of the overall suggestion. Out of 18 guidelines only
twice did I say inappropriate language is unacceptable, a fact which the moderators agree to; based on their installation of a moderator who has removed posts for that reason alone. I have been to websites that do absolutely no monitoring of their posters, the result is not good. Generally, it leads to the type of anarchy which is neither artistic, nor scholarly.

Read every post every day for 2 years, then come back to me and say I'm incorrect in wanting new posters to have access to website guidelines.

Les



Post Edited (04-28-04 20:55)

lg wrote:

How difficult and/or feasible would it be to put an
introductory page on this site, or at least a link to this
page, which would help FIRST time posters to better know some
unwritten rules about what and how to post on each of the
forums?

Probably not that difficult, bit it might be better to put it on the post a message page as a 'Before you post..."

Something such as this:

ALL FORUMS:

1. This site is for lovers of poetry. We do not allow
profanity, or personal tirades against fellow forum members.
Monitor yourselves so we don't have to erase your posts.

I don't know about the profanity/strong language &c. Hell, some of the poems in the database contain profanity, though I might be amenable to flagging posts as offensive so that people that are easily offended can 'filter' the offensive messages out (and more likely by default it would filter for non-registered users?), But this will have to wait a bit until we get around to working on the message boards.


2. When posting on any of the forums use the NEW topic tab
above your post. Always type in a SUBJECT that specifically
relates to your topic.


Sounds good.

3. Keep your posts in the correct area, do not post queries
about forgotten poems in the General Discussion area or
Homework Assistance forum. Do not post new poems in the
General Discussion forum.


I like this one.


4. Do not monopolize the board. Keep your posts to a maximum
of 2 or 3 a day so others can get the readership they, too
deserve.


Do you mean new threads, or do you mean responses? And really, I would think that this is only applies to the USP board.


5. Log in and use a valid e-mail address so that other forum
members may contact you and so that you may use the post-edit
feature of e-mule.


Some poeple don't like posting email address to the internet. For one as soon as you put your email addres on a webpage the SPAM starts to flow. I am thinking that with the new system, people will be required to be logged in to post a message, or maybe that will be only for some boards.


GENERAL DISCUSSION:

1. This site is for discussions about poetry. Practically
anything goes, but it should have some general literary
validity.

2. Do not post your own poetry on this forum, use the User
Submitted Poetry forum for that.

3. Refrain from profanity, besides a word filter these posts
are monitored to keep vulgar language off this site.


Again, as above.

4. Do not post a new topic at the bottom of someone else's
thread. Start a new topic of your own if you have one to
discuss.


This is quite common on mailling lists too, and it will always be a problem., but a reminder might help.

HOMEWORK ASSISTANCE:

1. Make sure that you begin a NEW topic for each of your
questions. Do not use someone else's thread to ask a new
question, even if it involves the same author, and or poem.

2. Use the search feature on this site to search for a topic
which may have been discussed here before.

3. Give yourself and your topic time to get some response/s.
Don't expect that a late Sunday evening question will be
answered before your Monday morning class.

4. Do not use the other forums on this site for homework
questions.

5. Be sure to title your questions specifically so that forum
experts may zero in on topics about which they are familiar.


This all sounds fine.

LOST POETRY QUOTATIONS

1. Do not post questions about lost lines on the General
Discussion forum.

2. Use the search feature on this site to find your quotation,
especially if you know the author of the line.

3. Give the experts plenty of time to help you find the quote.
Most forum members work and may not have time to check their
sources to help you.

4. Use what you know about the source of information about
your quote. If you read it in school, what book was it taken
from. Is the teacher, or librarian who supplied the book able
to give you any information? Sometimes any clue as to the
author may help solve your mystery.


Sounds good.

USER SUBMITTED POETRY


I am thinking that USP as a board will be going away shortly, to be replaces with something new that we are working on right now. It will be almost like mini-sites for each user somewhat similar to what we have for classical authors now, but with discussion of individual poems.

1. Use this site for poetry you have written. Make sure each
poem has its own title which should be the subject line of your
post.

2. Be courteous to other forum members. Respond to their
poetry in a tone and manner in which you hope they will respond
to your work.


I want people to respond to my poetry posts with nothing but praise, but the vitriol might help me as a poet more than the praise.

3. Do not post more than 2 or 3 poems a day. This will allow
your readers to give each poem the attention it deserves. It
will also allow poems already on the board time to get the
readers they deserve.


This is a problem with USP, but I think if each user has his/her separate area, this problem will go away.

4. Avoid vulgarity. Besides an obscene word filter, these

The filter really needs to go away. I think having the filter is worse than rejecting posts with profanity. I disabled it once, but when phorum was upgraded it came back.

posts are monitored to keep profane language off this site.


USP is probably not the place for this, though. Poetry is art, and sometimes art offends, sometimes are is not pretty.


Every item listed here has been a concern of myself and other
forum members in the past year. To me having a page such as
this linked to the home page makes more sense than attaching
works of art.

I'm not against the art work mind you, I just think these
matters are more practical concerns of the forum members than
that.

I wanted to bring more art into the archive. Visiual & Audio interps. of poems. And aslo allow a section where a user could upload artwork to go with his/her poem.


Rudy

Rudy, thank you sir for taking the time to respond. I like the comments you've
made and I would hope that Stephen would be able to input his ideas here as well. Although these are concerns of mine, I do believe that he would concur on most of what I have proposed.

As always it seems the most controversial part of these suggested guidelines,
the language guidelines, elicits the most emotional response. That's probably human nature. You can't discipline artists, most often they are ahead of the curve when it comes to public standards of acceptance. However, I only can relate to this topic in terms of my own personal experiences. In our local school district which had a T1 connection provided free of charge by the county in which I taught and which was funded by a state grant, there was a filter which would automatically screen any inappropriate language and BLOCK that site from future use by ANY student in the county. I would hate to see this site lost to potential students because of something as infrequent as the use of a four letter word which could have been avoided.

I would love to see an artwork connection. Please don't beat yourselves over the heads about this. Here's an example of how you can have your own galleries. Just e-mail the moderators of art link sites and ask if you can include their site as a link. No need to import the art, just the link, as they have done here:

[www.olemiss.edu] />
[www.museumlink.com] />
[www.mowa.org] />
Thank you again Rudy for responding. I appreciate your becoming personally involved in this. E-mule is by far my favorite website, I wish only to make it even better than it is.

Les G.



Post Edited (04-28-04 23:25)

Chesil wrote:

Your profanity is my strong verb - although the OED suggests
that profane would not be used in the sense that you choose the
word here. In that sense blasphemy might be a better term.

Then the OED probably needs updating, I don't have my copy handy so I don't know what it says; perforce, I must trust your reading. I have a copy of the additions series here, and I don't see anything in there; however, there could be updates on the website.

Then, of course, blasphemy is in the eye of the religion of the
observer. To a Muslim, The Satanic Verses might well be
blasphemous: should it not be published?

Semantics aside, the elevation of some overused short words
seems to make them more and not less popular. In any event why
would a four letter verb for the sex act be offensive and an
eight or nine letter word not
be offensive? The overuse of such words demonstrates the

And why should a 6 letter word used to describe a person of colour be offensive and a 5 letter word which does the same considerd to be less offensive? Because we as socity have decided so.
And I would have to say that the above aluded-to word has much force than any 4 letter word used to descibe sexual acts.

paucity of the vocabulary of the user. Nevertheless, I never
pick up a literary magazine published by the most eminent
universities of the land without detecting a number of four
letter words, mostly used appropriately in the context of the
common language of today. There is a place in literature for
all words. To ban some is akin to book burning: never
permissible. Perhaps you would have preferred that Ulysses,
Lady Chatterley's Lover, Last Exit From Brooklyn and many many

Yes. Have you read Lady Chatterley's Lover?

other works had never been published? Like it or not, this is
the vocabulary of the young and to ban the usage of such
language is to add to its popularity.


Profanity is undergoing a shift, Words dealing with sex, god and bodily functions seem to be becomming more mainstream whereas words dealing with race are now taboo.

Freedom of speech but not of the words chosen seems to be a
perverse logic. Personally, I am far more offended by the poor
spelling and even worse punctuation on the USP pages.


Those poorly spelt words could probably be found in the OED.

Commercially, make it difficult and users disappear. I feel
sure that Aaron, Kevin and Rudy do not wish to drive traffic
away. The last I heard, emule hardly paid its way through
advertising and a drop in users because of registration
requirements would be unlikely to heal that position?


A drop in users would not be good, but we now have someone working to add features to the site, so the hope is that any loss in users will be made up for by the addition of new users (and maybe a higher google ranking).
And while we are working adding new features we are also trying to find some creative ways of removing the banners while still having the site pay for bandwith and servers. I am thinking of intergrating parts of the site with amazon (this poem can be found in this book, add this book to my amazon shopping cart...).

As Linda so wisely asserted, rules are enjoyed more in the
breach by that class of user that is determined to be
unpleasant and the best way of dealing with them is to ignore
them. A set of rules is hardly likely to improve things.

Were we to have a new board that permits many subsets, then
perhaps we might have a variety of boards that allow for
serious criticism, light criticism, no 'profanity' and much
else that appeals to groups of users. Until then, I continue to

This sounds like where I would like to go with the site.

believe that moderation, other than for personal insult, racial
slurs and so forth, treats adults as children and should be
abandoned.

Agreed.

Rudy

lg wrote:

As always it seems the most controversial part of these
suggested guidelines,
the language guidelines, elicits the most emotional response.
That's probably human nature. You can't discipline artists,
most often they are ahead of the curve when it comes to public
standards of acceptance. However, I only can relate to this
topic in terms of my own personal experiences. In our local
school district which had a T1 connection provided free of
charge by the county in which I taught and which was funded by
a state grant, there was a filter which would automatically
screen any inappropriate language and BLOCK that site from
future use by ANY student in the county. I would hate to see

So does this mean that this system blocked the works of:
Conrad (The nigger in the narcissus) ,
Pope (As one hog lives in what another sh---),
Shakespere (There must be something),
Clemens (Jim was a good nigger) ,
Lwarance(acceptable),
Chaucer (And thus swived was the carpenter's wife),
Boccaccio (We would not want those childern going around putting the devil into hell, oh wait, that is a good thing, right?)

I wonder what this system would do if fed Lolita or Mein Kampf? What would the outcry be were the same critera applied to the books in the school library?

When I was about 10 years old, I decided that instead of going to watch movies I would read the book on which the movie was based. Now this was back in '88 (that is 1988 everone) when Big was, well, Big, and 'Flowers in the Attic' had just come out. I read Bit over the summber before school started, and, starting the 6th Grade, I broght with me a brand new copy of "Flowers in the attic" which I proceeded to read during luch & while waiting in the halls & inbetween classes. After I finished it, I found out that it was just the first book in a series, so continued to read the works of "VC Andrews" (They are not that good, BTW), and In high school, after a fiction hiatus, I eventually worked myself up to reading real books, viz., Tolstoy, Hardy, Hugo, and I would probably say that I read more than most of the people that I went to school with.

I did know this part until about a year ago: My 6'th grade teachers were quite upset that I was reading a book which was not approiate for children my age, and they tried to convince my mother to not let me read books such as that. She, doing the right thing, told them to bugger off (is that profane?) -- that at least I was reading. Do you think that she should have taken that away and given me "A light in the attic", in its stead?

I am a firm believer that keeping "Objectionable content" from children does them harm than allowing access while providing the information needed understand it.


this site lost to potential students because of something as
infrequent as the use of a four letter word which could have
been avoided.


That is one of the reasons why I want to make those parts only available to registered users.


I would love to see an artwork connection. Please don't beat
yourselves over the heads about this. Here's an example of how
you can have your own galleries. Just e-mail the moderators of
art link sites and ask if you can include their site as a link.
No need to import the art, just the link, as they have done
here:

[www.olemiss.edu] />

We are looking at something a little more elaborate:

So for example click on "La Belle Dam Sans Merci", not only would you get the poem but you would also get Dicksee's painting:

[www.artmagick.com] />
Or reading the "Lady of shalot" you would get the J.W. Waterhouse paintings.

And maybe if you clicked on "O swallow" You would get a link (copyright) to the Holst CD that has it set to music, A score by Gilbert and Sullivan (I wonder those works are still in copyright?), &c.

Thank you again Rudy for responding. I appreciate your
becoming personally involved in this. E-mule is by far my
favorite website, I wish only to make it even better than it
is.

Thank you.

Rudy

I'm with Les, mostly. I prefer some basic rules, guidelines, whatever, to be set out somewhere, mostly so genuine people know what to do or not to do - how to start new threads, how many poems to post at a time, how to post a hyperlink, techie stuff. Looking forward to more of that.

The other issue is inappropriate behaviour. Every site attracts idiots. They can get a site into such a state of chaos, it expires. We have idiots to thank for losing the Poetry Society Lost Quotations site. Rules attract rulebreakers. What fun, to burden the site with sexual and racist abuse and just plain rudeness!

Which is why I volunteered to be moderator. It's the only way. Somebody acts naughty, I zap. You will still find posts left unzapped with the f word, or worse: my decision, my taste, my standards. I've had enough compliments from you guys - the emule family - to think I'm doing a good job.

Stephen

Rudy, the system I was discussing does NOT censor literary works. As far as I know everything available in project Gutenburg is available through the server. But language which is on a chat post such as this is somehow screened. I do not know how it works. You might contact the MCOE, in Merced California and ask them how it works. As a user of the system, I never questioned the why of it, I just did what I was intstructed to do by those who paid my salary.

My 6'th grade teachers were quite upset that I was reading a book >which was not approiate for children my age, and they tried to convince >my mother to not let me read books such as that.

I think that your parents must have been more enlightened than the average. The reason most books have been banned, edited and kept out of particular schools and libraries has nothing to do with teachers. It has everything to do with parents. In practically all cases where certain books have been found unacceptable for certain groups, school boards or boards of stewards for that institution, which represent "community" standards have made the decisions, not the instructor(s).

If there are NO standards, does that mean that you would allow 6th grade students to read Playboy, Hustler and the complete works of the Marquis de Sade. If so I think you would be in a minority in that thinking, even in this age of "anything goes".

I can understand your point of view which is probably closer to my own than you realize. My personal opinion is that knowledge should not be kept from kids. But I also believe that there are "age appropriate" materials. Local school boards throughout this country and I'm sure throughout most of the English speaking world have put SOME limits on what is allowed. Personally, I do not disagree with the standards that you/your site is permitting at this point in time. I'm not asking you to make tougher standards. All I am asking for is that you post those standards so that NEWBIES can see them BEFORE posting.

As to the art project. Bravo. But when do you think this will be done? I'm 54 and would love to see it before I go. Good luck with your improvements,
they sound like they will make my time spent here at e-mule well worth it.

Les

Stephen, I was typing my reply to Rudy while your post came in. I agree with you 100 per cent. I think that making some generally accepted knowledge available to newcomers can only help. I don't see how that would be any kind of hindrance to anyone already using the forum as it is.

But, Rudy and Aaron are the ones who have to make the decision, that is why
I posted this. Why not send them an e-mail? I think that some readers here might be interested in any changes and I think that most of the readers are curious to know what the operators of the site think about these matters.

I too have been to blogs and websites which have no standards. They soon turn into sites which I feel are inappropriate and unusable as educational tools. That is why I hold the opinion which I have formed.

Les



Post Edited (04-29-04 03:08)

When I was seven I went to my aunt's ( a primary school teacher) and while the adults were talking browsed through her bookshelves, picked up a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover and started to read it. I have no memory of the reaction of the adults, being engrossed in what I was doing, but my mother told me that my father went a strange colour and she herself began to fluster. My aunt just said quietly, 'Leave her alone - she's not old enough to read it and will put it down shortly'. Which I did.

When my own, son, a precocious reader got to about five and a half, he read everything he laid eyes on, including the paper. A newspaper front-page article on a judge's decision to let a very handicapped baby die, rather than seek to prolong its life of great pain and suffering with medication, caught his attention and upset him really badly, partly because he wasn't emotionally mature enough to cope with the concept of undeserved suffering (neither am I, even now!). At any rate, we stopped having a daily paper rather than try to keep it from him or explain all the stories.

What I'm trying to say is that censorship never works well because what affects/damages young people isn't predictable. The main reason I see for filtering, watersheds, film certificates, behind the counter and top shelf locations for magazines etc is to help parents to monitor what their children are doing and give them safe places to explore while their parents get on with earning a living, relaxing and bracing themselves for the next round of parenting. It also helps people like me to avoid things I dont want to watch (this from someone who went to see Midnight Cowboy when it first came out, believing it to be a Western!) People without children are often unsympathetic about this, and lazy people with them sometimes want the whole world turned into a soft play area so they don't have to bother with dealing with difficult situations. The same folk want the school to teach table manners and sex education and preferably potty training, too. So it is both necessary to set limits and impossible to get them right - one has to go to my main parental maxim - only when both sides are equally disgruntled with your decision can you be sure that you have made the right one (and with any luck they'll be so disgruntled that next time they will sort it out for themselves and not ask you - I can be as lazy as the next Mum! ).

Stephen does a good job as moderator - I've said it before and I'll say it again. And most people using e-mule appreciate that and respect the site. Aren't we lucky!

That last post, from Licky, gets me thinking. Here we are, having a serious debate, disagreeing politely, adding to the stock of thought on the subject. And along comes Licky, with a - to me - inconsequential and - to me - rude contribution. An offensive word is included, disguised by asterisks. My instinct is to remove it. But, for once, I won't, because it's best left in full view as an exemplar.

Stephen

I am completely serious Stephen.

Les used the word I placed in asterisks in full. No example was made of him.
His comment was not edited. Les has also clearly stated his age to be 19.
Now it appears he is much older. Recent public information films clearly show
adults posing as chilldren on the internet to be wrong.


Leiky

lg wrote:

Rudy, the system I was discussing does NOT censor literary
works. As far as I know everything available in project
Gutenburg is available through the server. But language which
is on a chat post such as this is somehow screened. I do not

Is that not interesting?

know how it works. You might contact the MCOE, in Merced

It probably does not work that well if at all.

California and ask them how it works. As a user of the system,

I could try, but it seems that the companies that write this sort of software tend to be very tight-liped on how the system decides on what to block and even what it blocks.

[www.eff.org] />
If you want a safe zone for children, then you need to have something that is not the internet, but in doing so you loose much of what is good about the internet.

If there are NO standards, does that mean that you would allow
6th grade students to read Playboy, Hustler and the complete
works of the Marquis de Sade. If so I think you would be in a
minority in that thinking, even in this age of "anything goes".


I had access to Playboy Hustler &al. when I was 8,9,10. My parents did not give it to me, but I had access, and I don't see the harm it did to me.

And when it comes to the works of de Sade, if a child of this age is able to read de Sade why stop him/her? A child that is able to read him, will probably be able to handle the material. Take the child that is reading de Sade just because it is "unacceptable"; the child would nonetheless benifit form the book, and probably score higher on the SAT than his/her peer who had de Sade taken away and replaced with "Child-Safe Fluffy Bunny Childrens' Story".

I now have a feeling that this will come back to haunt me now that children are groing up with the internet, "But daddy you said.... on emule...". I know I will just pin it on Mom. " I don't have a problem, but your mother..."

And I am not saying that parents should give children such works, but they should be aware of what their children are viewing and give the children the infromation needed to handle what they are seeing (Even if child does not know that his/her parents know what s/he is reading).

I can understand your point of view which is probably closer to
my own than you realize. My personal opinion is that knowledge
should not be kept from kids. But I also believe that there
are "age appropriate" materials. Local school boards throughout
this country and I'm sure throughout most of the English
speaking world have put SOME limits on what is allowed.
Personally, I do not disagree with the standards that you/your
site is permitting at this point in time. I'm not asking you
to make tougher standards.

I know, but the debate is good for the site and to determine where the site will be going
in the future at what features need to be added to "protect the children".

All I am asking for is that you
post those standards so that NEWBIES can see them BEFORE
posting.


I'll talk with Aaron and try and find a place for some pointers on posting.

As to the art project. Bravo. But when do you think this will
be done? I'm 54 and would love to see it before I go. Good
luck with your improvements,
they sound like they will make my time spent here at e-mule
well worth it.

Within the next few months. We have someone working on the site now, but it will probably take him a while to get up-to-speed with the code that runs the site now, and then with the code that I wrote for the change. I will try and put up a little test site next week sometime with what I have done so far (But be aware that it is very plain -- no graphics, broken links &c.).


Rudy

Licky wrote:

StephenFryer wrote:

That last post, from Licky, gets me thinking. Here we are,
having a serious debate, disagreeing politely, adding to the
stock of thought on the subject. And along comes Licky, with a
- to me - inconsequential and - to me - rude contribution. An

Benifit of the doubt; it could be a misunderstaning.

Whistle An absolutely fascinating debate! I can see the character of many of you who are debating, Les you are a strong and ethical man. Pam, Marion and Chesil obvious lovers of words. BLecky is argumentative.

I have never had the pleasure of meeting either Kevin or Rudy (via the board of course) so to you gents I say, Thank you, thank you for this board!! Because of the fabulous people who work, create and offer advise on this board, my work and I have grown!

Rules are needed as guidelines, basically if we could or would take the time to be descent we wouldn't need such "strict" and what seems obvious rules.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

Leiky, here is a link to my posts: If you or anyone else can find anywhere on the web, that I said either of the statements you alledge, I will send you $1000 if they can show me either statement. One of the beauties of computers is that you can SAVE everything. All of my posts (and yours) are available to anyone who uses this site. Here is a link to ALL of my posts so you can read what I've had to say about everything since I began posting in 2002.

[www.emule.com] />

Les



Post Edited (04-29-04 12:03)

Stephen, these kinds of "off the wall" comments by forum members aimed at other members are what often starts a tirade that becomes heated. That is exactly why we need a moderator who can judge for themselves whether the
posters are helping/hurting the site. And whether their posts should be allowed.

Rudy, you have a very liberal and enlightened view of rearing children. My experience tells me however, that your opinion is in the minority in mainstream America. You are correct about the fact that any child on the net can be exposed to all kinds of awful stuff. For myself I would hate to lose the ability to help young people, which we do on the Homework Assistance forum.
Even though that forum doesn't get as many hits as the others, I think it is a drawing card and a real asset to your website.


Les



Post Edited (04-29-04 12:36)

Me again. Sit up at the back.

This site is absolutely invaluable, providing four distinct forums (and don't you dare start me on Latin plurals - I hate 'em).

From experience, with one or two exceptions, most individuals haunt mostly one forum. Homework Assistance does what it says on the tin, and kids get thoughtful genuine help from some altruistic saints (yes, all right Hugh, that does include you). Lost Quotations (sorry about the log-in requirement: maybe we can drop it now, rudy?) is becoming increasingly popular and we have acquired a can-do reputation, in the wake of the lamented Poetry Library site. General Discussion is a place where a few old farts hang out and chew the fat, and where from time to time someone lights a fire under an interesting pot like this'un: boy is it fun, and sometimes even erudite especially when a brace of marians settle on it and a chesil flies by. None of these three forums ever attract much in the way of the objectionable, the rude, the racist, et cetera - and that is because the individuals haunting them are by and large not cut from any such cloth. When from time to time someone wanders into the party and starts lighting up tokes and stuff, I zap 'em.

And then there's User Submitted Poetry. A kitchen in which it can get hot. And objectionable and rude and racist et cetera. Show me a site where you can put your own poem on the world wide web, and I'll show you a kid with a keyboard containing the letters f and u and oh you know the rest. As long as you have open access, you'll get that. But don't you worry, my pretties, Captain Moderator at your service, vorpal sword in hand. USP is where I'm needed most. Any time you see something nasty I've missed, ignore it and email me. I may be away for a day or two but I'll get round to it.

So: emule rools, OK? A great place to be.

Leicky, is there a mixup here maybe? Is ther another Les who is bugging you?

Guess what guys? I just got second prize in my University poetry competition. I got third last year. Next year? We'll see.

Stephen

btw, the 'brace of marians' and 'chesil' reference was an in-joke. Will those offended by exclusion please form an orderly queue outside my study door.
I said orderly, Pam!

Stephen

Where do you want those orderlys delivered?

pam

So, what poem did you enter in the competition? Have you posted it?

Stephen, congratulations. You are definitely correct about the USP being the one forum which most often gets crazy posts. Are we right Critic?

Les

Pam: the Adam trilogy: Bath: Walnut Whip: She never left home without: Elham Vallet Bookshop.

Stephen

All-

I am willing to wade through any and all of the cr@p mentioned above to get to and participate in a (mostly) thoughtful discussion like this. The REAL garbage piles seem to be few and far between lately. It's good to see a prickley subject like this can be discussed civilly (sp?) among friends who CARE about the matter at hand.

Congrats Stephen!


Jack

I found Bath, Walnut Whip, Making Raita with Adam, and Adam's Boxes. I don't recall the bookshop one at all. Are you holding out?

pam

Jack and Marians, thank you for commenting here.

Marian2, I agree with the idea that education in the form of reading won't hurt a kid. Perhaps, as Rudy suggests it might even help them somewhere down the road.

But Rudy's idea about the SAT is a little far-fetched. I've taught classes on the SAT. It requires a specialized vocabulary. Better to have them learn words like "villify" and "emanate" than read tons of literature. Also, if they're taking the SAT have them do a bunch of "train" and "tank" math problems.

Jack, thanks for joining the fray. The only reason I posted this here rather than e-mailing it to Stephen was to generate some input from people like yourself and John Summers who know what it's like to see the same mistakes about posting and language being made by newcomers month after month.

Marian NYC, I really like your suggestions. I guess the teacher in me makes me think in terms of rules. But guidelines and/or helpful hints is probably a better way to go.

Thank you all for the input so far.

Les



Post Edited (04-29-04 23:21)

Pam, OK, I've posted Elham Valley Bookshop now.

Stephen

I think that Marian-NYC makes a lot of sense with her approach. Since some people seem to naturally bristle when it comes to rules, helpful hints would be more of an enlightenment. This has been a very interesting and positive thread.

john

Rudy wrote:

Then the OED probably needs updating, I don't have my copy
handy so I don't know what it says; perforce, I must trust your
reading. I have a copy of the additions series here, and I
don't see anything in there; however, there could be updates on
the website.

1. Not pertaining or devoted to what is sacred or biblical, esp. in profane history, literature; unconsecrated, secular, lay, common; civil, as distinguished from ecclesiastical.

2. Applied to persons or things regarded as unholy or as desecrating what is holy or sacred: unhallowed; ritually unclean or polluted; esp. said of the rites of an alien religion: heathen, pagan.

3. Characterized by disregard or contempt of sacred things, esp., in later use, by the taking of God's name in vain; irreverent, blasphemous, ribald; impious, irreligious, wicked.

And why should a 6 letter word used to describe a person of
colour be offensive and a 5 letter word which does the same
considerd to be less offensive? Because we as socity have
decided so.
And I would have to say that the above aluded-to word has much
force than any 4 letter word used to descibe sexual acts.

Agreed. Though I have seen it used to great effect in literature, which is my point. We need to differentiate between personal abuse, racial slurs and the proper use of such words in a well considered poem.

Yes. Have you read Lady Chatterley's Lover?

Yes and the others I mentioned. Lady Chatterley is hardly Lawrence's finest work, but it probably is not his worst.

Profanity is undergoing a shift, Words dealing with sex, god
and bodily functions seem to be becomming more mainstream
whereas words dealing with race are now taboo.

Accepting our difference over the use of the word profanity! The OED says about the racial slur:

1. a. A Negro. (Colloq. and usu. contemptuous.) Except in Black English vernacular, where it remains common, now virtually restricted to contexts of deliberate and contemptuous ethnic abuse.

The etymology, which I won't quote here, demonstrates the contemptuous usage from the earliest recorded publication of the word. The difference between this and the other words under discussion is that it was coined as an insult. There is no place for it in chatter, but a poem using it? Especially written by one who has suffered the indignities of racial prejudice. I accept, though, that a moderator should not become a judge of what constitutes a well crafted poem on an open board. Easier on a board with restricted posting rights.

It works fairly successfully elsewhere. Open forums and then some with restricted posting rights. A team of moderators, rather than just poor Stephen trying to cover everything.

Chesil

Les,

I used to spend a lot of voluntary time with deprived kids when I worked in the UK. I learned that the words you object to were common currency. Most due to the fact that parents spoke in that manner but some used them to try and shock and provoke a reaction. The fact that they do provoke this reaction makes them more, not less attractive. Would I recommend this site to an adolescent if I knew the bad words existed? Sure. We all have moral standards and we all set them a little differently. I disagree with you but respect your view.

lg wrote:

And as I stated at the outset, I do not need or expect anyone
else's cooperation in stating my suggestion to Rudy, Aaron, and
Kevin. Of course I could go elsewhere, but I don't think that
that drastic a move is needed.

Les, if you post on the forum rather than by emailing you must expect comments.

Chesil, did you read ALL of the suggested guidelines, or just
the first one?
Profanity is a small part of the overall suggestion. Out of 18
guidelines only
twice did I say inappropriate language is unacceptable, a fact
which the moderators agree to; based on their installation of a
moderator who has removed posts for that reason alone. I have
been to websites that do absolutely no monitoring of their
posters, the result is not good. Generally, it leads to the
type of anarchy which is neither artistic, nor scholarly.

I read them all. I don't think there needs to be a splash page but a FAQ is fine.

Read every post every day for 2 years, then come back to me and
say I'm incorrect in wanting new posters to have access to
website guidelines.

Les, nobody is more astounded by your devotion to these forums than me. I admire your ability to comment in a friendly and encouraging way to nearly every original post. This discussion is not personal, and I hope you don't take it that way.

My objections are limited, as I have indicated. If the board does become segmented in the way Rudy discusses in his response to me, I feel sure that we all will benefit.

Chesil

Stephen, we have not always seen eye to eye on the issue of moderation, but I do believe that you take the role seriously and that you spare us from the excesses that trollers generate. I am grateful for that.

Congratulations on your success at UKC (?), have you posted the works? I should know, but I have been traveling extensively of late and will be for a while to come and have not been keeping up.

Chesil

Chesil, I'm thick skinned enough not to let comments made about something I've said bother me. Again, let me venture to say that most of us are far to the left of the public education system, which uses this site. If we were to allow unmonitored posting regardless of the access to Classical poets, the site would not be accessible to many public schools. I'm sure even Rudy would agree on this point.

Also, in posting this here, even though I expect no corroboration, I was looking for some feedback. And as I suspected, some good ideas have been generated and I think some genuine interest shown by forum regulars who really CARE how this forum is managed.

If nothing else, the volume of these responses tells me that it (proposed guidelines) is a concern for more than a few of us who frequent this website.


Les



Post Edited (04-30-04 14:22)

Chesil, old bean, we British must stick together: and yes, all my stuff has been posted, you'll just need to stick in the titles as search terms in the USP - there are a number of Adam poems, though.

There are completely open, unmoderated - and that's the point! - sites. Try this for size:
[openpoetry.com] />

Stephen

Let's give 'em a thrill, Stephen. Here's a link to all your work on the USP:

[www.emule.com] />

Les

I'll be looking for them Stephen, again well done.

Nothing much seems to be going on at the link you posted but, in any event, my objection to Jough Dempsey's various poetry sites has been his willingness to reproduce substantial amounts of copyrighted material. You see, I do have some standards!

Chesil

Jough's a bad lad, right enough.

Les, have you worked out if there's a way to link up all the posts I (or you, or anybody) originated - other than go through the list ignoring the 'Re' ones?

Stephen

Thank you Marian. I am new and after reading this think I have broken all the rules. I will try to do better. Like most people I just dive into a website. It takes big, block, bold letters to get my attention. I think I am normal!

Stephen, can't be done with this search engine. You're lucky though, only 800 entries, check out the numbers on my link above. Jeez!

Les



Post Edited (05-02-04 14:51)

Russ wrote (very candidly), "Like most people I just dive into a website. It takes big, block, bold letters to get my attention. I think I am normal!"

So here's a thought, separate from anything about rules, guidelines, etc. At the top of this window, you see:

General Discussion -
Homework Assistance -
User Submitted Poetry -
Lost Poetry Quotations

One of those indicates where you are (GD) and the other three are places you can go, but they all look about the same at a glance. Above THAT, at the top of the screen, it says that you are ON the General Discussion forum, but I never noticed that until I checked a moment ago for the purpose of writing this.

What if the top of the window made that a little clearer? What if it said:

GENERAL DISCUSSION [in BIG BLOCK LETTERS]

Click here for "Homework Assistance"
Click here for "User Submitted Poetry"
Click here for "Lost Poetry Quotations"

That might reduce the number of wrong-forum postings.

ALSO, if Aaron-Kevin-Rudy are willing to make changes like that to the appearance of the forums, I would like one more. Instead of a link to "New Topic," could it say "Click here to START A NEW TOPIC" ?

I recall that when I first visited eMule, I thought I was supposed to click there to VIEW the next topic.

Some good points Marian. I hope we don't lose the ability to search for old posts with the new features that are in the works.

Les