who alive now can create poetry compared to Shakespeare's?

Anyone can be compared. The comparison may or may not be flattering.

Even Shakespeare wasn't compared to Shakespeare when he was alive- we'll have to let time do its work to judge.

pam

It may be relevant to note that many English scholars do not feel that Shakespeare is as great a poet as he is a playwright.

Les

As they say "If Shakespeare was alive today he'd be writing adaptations for television."

Heaven knows, television could use him!


Les

I remember an argument in a novel that there are no more lyric poets because they've all gone into advertising.

pam

Who do you think is the biggest genius...Einstein or Shakespeare?

Actually, I think William was a little taller!

But if we're talking real genius, my vote goes to Thomas Edison. He made things that work! I think about that when I turn on the lights sometimes. Now man that was genius!


Les

Einstein would probably say that Shakespeare was "greater," or he'd just say that greatness is relative...

There have been times, in recent years, when I've described something as "Shakespearian" -- I'm trying to think WHEN! But even if I could remember the specific material that elicited that comment from me, I'm sure I was only comparing SOME ASPECT of it to SOME ASPECT of Shakespeare: the grandeur of a tragic character's fall, OR the beauty of the dialogue, OR the richness of the symbolism.

Marian, what I always admired in Shakespeare's plays was the "depth" of the characters. How true to live they were and are!

Les

Marian, here is a very clever one by R.S. Gwynn:

[www.unibas.ch] />

R. S. Gwynn - Shakespearean Sonnet

(With a first line taken from the tv listings)

A man is haunted by his father's ghost.
A boy and girl love while their families fight.
A Scottish king is murdered by his host.
Two couples get lost on a summer night.
A hunchback murders all who block his way.
A ruler's rivals plot against his life.
A fat man and a prince make rebels pay.
A noble Moor has doubts about his wife.
An English king decides to conquer France.
A duke learns that his best friend is a she.
A forest sets the scene for this romance.
An old man and his daughters disagree.
A Roman leader makes a big mistake.
A sexy queen is bitten by a snake.


I feel certain you will know all the references!

Posted without permission, but I cannot imagine the author would object.

Marc Antony's Funeral Oration
Richard "Lord" Buckley, 1906-1960
(Cf. Julius Caesar, Act 3, Scene 2, lines 74-108)

Hipsters, flipsters, and finger-poppin' daddies,
Knock me your lobes,
I came to lay Caesar out,
Not to hip you to him.
The bad jazz that a cat blows,
Wails long after he's cut out.
The groovey is often stashed with their frames,
So don't put Caesar down.
The swinging Brutus hath laid a story on you
That Caesar was hungry for power.
If it were so, it was a sad drag,
And sadly hath the Caesar cat answered it.
Here with a pass from Brutus and the other brass,
For Brutus is a worthy stud,
Yea, so are they all worthy studs,
Though their stallions never sleep.
I came to wail at Ceasar's wake.
He was my buddy, and he leveled with me.
Yet Brutus digs that he has eyes for power,
And Brutus is a solid cat.
It is true he hath returned with many freaks in chains
And brought them home to Rome.
Yea, the looty was booty
And hip the trays we weld(?)
Dost thou dig that this was Caesar's groove
For the putsch?
When the cats with the empty kicks hath copped out,
Yea, Caesar hath copped out, too,
And cried up a storm.
To be a world grabber a stiffer riff must be blown.
Without bread a stud can't even rule an anthill.
Yet Brutus was swinging for the moon.
And, yea, Brutus is a worthy stud.
And all you cats were gassed on the Lupercal
When he came on like a king freak.
Three times I lay the kingly wig on him,
And thrice did he put it down.
Was this the move of a greedy hipster?
Yet, Brutus said he dug the lick,
And, yes, a hipper cat has never blown.
Some claim that Brutus' story was a gag.
But I dug the story was solid.
I came here to blow.
Now, stay cool while I blow.
You all dug him once
Because you were hipped that he was solid
How can you now come on so square
Now that he's tapped out of this world.
City Hall is flipped
And swung to a drunken zoo
And all of you cats are goofed to wig city.
Dig me hard.
My ticker is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And, yea, I must stay cool til it flippeth back to me.

Marvelous stuff!

I remembered the last time I used "Shakespearian" to describe a contemporary thing: It was Denzel Washington's role and his performance in TRAINING DAY.

I meant that the character had a greatness worthy of a Shakespearian hero-villain, his dialogue was as different (from my own) as that of a Shakespeare character and well-enough written to be worth memorizing, and his downfall was brought about by himself more than anything else (cp. Antony and other characters of whom someone says "No one but HE could have destroyed HIM" or words to that effect).

That doesn't mean that the screenwriter of TRAINING DAY writes "like Shakespeare" in most senses.

That would be hard to judge, since Shakespeare is dead.

"I "Love Summer more than I hate Winter"

Well, I can think of at least a couple of other authors who are also dead, but they don't write like Shakespeare either.

Shakespear used to compose (literary works)
Now, all he does is decompose

The fact that nearly 4 centuries after the man has died we are still asking the question: "Isn't Mickey Mantle as good as Shakespeare?" Nope, Barry Bonds is good, but he's not Shakespeare...

Les

The Patagonians have two poets. The better one is known as the Patagonian Shakespeare.

'A fat man and a prince make rebels pay'

Lost me on this one.


Jack

Jack:

When the topic is Shakespeare, "the fat man" is Falstaff. I think this is Henry IV, part 2.

I think it's Part I, not II. Try Act V, Scene 3.

My favorite lines from that play are from Act III, 1:

Glendower. I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur. Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?


pam

Over the weekend I watched a documentary in which a Shakespeare scholar said something to this effect: "There will never be another Shakespeare, because the social conditions will never occur again."

Check out Dani Filth of Cradle of Filth's lyrics. This is an excerpt from "Haunted Shores":


I fear the Augean light
is sweeping through Camelot
How bittersweet my triumphs seem,
now Autumnal leaves succumb to frost
Morganna art thou near me?
Languid, I wend my path to grave
Cast my sword to the sulphyd grasp
Of the naiad neath the silvered lake
When waters stirred lay silent
Mistress let the mists descend
Thy tears cannot thaw Death's cold heart
His sombre gaze defies legend
More so than thine, else thy dew-lidded eyes
Art for the Banshees song
Or our souls entwined like vein upon
The haunted shores of Avalon


[www.darklyrics.com]

... the social conditions will never occur again.

They almost didn't occur the first time:


"London's theatres were closed in January 1593 due to an outbreak of the plague, and many players left the capital to tour the provinces. Shakespeare preferred to stay in London, and it was during this time of plague that he began to gain recognition as a writer, notably of long poems, such as Venus and Adonius, and Rape of Lucrece. "


But for the fortuitous chance of not being bitten by an infected flea ...

Have you tried to buy a decent QUILL lately?

No, but there certainly are a lot of men playing the part of women on broadway lately!

Les

Hi, I saw that sonnet the other day, and decided to cook up one of my own. After all, 14 lines only covers 14 plays (fifteen, maybe...line 7 could stand for Henry IV 1 & 2).

So, here are another 14! Hope you enjoy.

A bastard chides his cousin-king to war
A prideful Roman soldier finds a grave
Swords clash over ‘a cuckold and a whore’
A sour Athenian moves into a cave
A magic duke is islebound by his brother
A portly king is granted a divorce
One set of twins is taken for the other
A bed-trick leads a young count to remorse
A sharp-tongued pair is fooled and falls in love
Four noblemen can’t stick to bachelor life
A shrewish maid gets changed into a dove
A Jew is told to put away his knife
A wandering prince of Greece finds wife and child
A jealous king to all is reconciled

Here's the answer key, in case anyone wants to check their guesses, to either Hugh's, or D.W.'s sonnet references.


[jjorg.chem.unc.edu] />


Les

A bastard chides his cousin-king to war -- KIING JOHN
A prideful Roman soldier finds a grave ANTONY AND CLEOPATRA
Swords clash over ‘a cuckold and a whore’--TROILUS AND CRESSIDA
A sour Athenian moves into a cave--TIMON OF ATHENS
A magic duke is islebound by his brother-- THE TEMPEST
A portly king is granted a divorce-- HENRY VIII
One set of twins is taken for the other - THE COMEDY OF ERRORS
A bed-trick leads a young count to remorse- I see this one as Much Ado as well
A sharp-tongued pair is fooled and falls in love- MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING (although I could argue this one for Shrew as well)
Four noblemen can’t stick to bachelor life
A shrewish maid gets changed into a dove TAMING OF THE SHREW
A Jew is told to put away his knife- MERCHANT OF VENICE
A wandering prince of Greece finds wife and child
A jealous king to all is reconciled- as you said, Hal-IV, I or II

pam

Thanks for going over them. I first produced this for a listserv of trivia enthusiasts, and none of them dunderheads has even tried.

KING JOHN, right.

2 - If that were ANTONY & CLEOPATRA, then I’d have broken my rule, of not duplicating any of the plays from the other poem. I can understand your guess, though. However, I think most WS-scholar guys would agree there’s a better fit…Antony’s sin was more luxury than pride. The title character I’m pointing at is ALL pride.

TROILUS, TIMON, TEMPEST, HENRY VIII, C. OF E., right.

You’re right, there is trickery revolving around somebody’s bed in MAAN, and a young count feels remorse. Didn’t think about that. But that’s ‘cause I read that there’s a specific ancient plot device called ‘the bed-trick,’ and it doesn’t apply to MAAN. It does apply to two of WS’s ‘problem comedies,’ one of which is the one I meant.

And in my defense, the battling B’s of MAAN are tricked by their friends into love, TTOTS is more boy-meets-girl, boy-browbeats-girl-into-submission.

SHREW & MERCHANT, right of course.

Again, if the last one were Henry IV then I’d’ve broken my rule. The ‘correct’ answer is another of the ‘problem comedies.’

some of us are alive, sort of



Post Edited (04-14-05 02:34)

It does apply to two of WS’s ‘problem comedies,’ one of which is the >one I meant.

I'll take Measure for Measure for one thousand, Alex.

pam

Where's the first list posted?

If you see the Reduced Shakespeare Company's 'All of Shakespeare in 90 minutes,' they start out with asking the audience which plays they've seen. The tiebreaker is King John.

pam

In answer to Pam's q, first one can be found below under Hugh Clary, 12-09-03 17:32

Somebody on my triv listserv [badbart@yahoogroups] found it and posted it the other day. Google sent me here. (Interesting place.)

Folks who can compose original Shakespearean sonnet-riddles should be encouraged to remain. Y'all come back now, hear?

I swung by the Yahoo badbart group to look around, but looks like I am forced to Join, and be subject to their spam if I do so. Anything there worth suffering the onslaught?

Sure, I can.

Ahem......................
...............................

Wherefore doest my buttocks expand next?
It must be poor Yorrick is verily trapped beneath
that monstrosity.
Whoops! My manly blob must herefore arise and allow
that poor fellow to come hither to revel in unpolluted air.

"I "Love Summer more than I hate Winter"

check out Google's logo, it must be leonardo's birthday

Thanks, I'll certainly hang around.

The badbart moderators take care of the spam, all you'd get if you joined is dozens of e-mails sent to it from your fellow members. But if you join from yahoogroups, I'm under the impression your inbox would be untouched, you could simply browse them from yahoogroups. I'll get clarification on that.

But let me be clear, I wasn't trying to foist the listserv on you. No specific interest there in W.S., or poetry, although there are a number of folks there who love both. What it is, is a bunch of people who play bar trivia. You may or may not have come across it in a watering hole near you (U.S. & Canada mainly), it's called NTN. Lotsa fun, if you have a yen for it. (www.ntn.com would tell you where to find a location.)

Sonnet

Like beasts of burden pace we forth each day
Each to his own task and mindless hours
And barely pause to note that beautious ray
Which falls from Heaven's Orb betwixt the showers
Thus blind, o'er years, we tread beneath our soles
A treasure to outshine our base desires
Thence, return each night bereft and cold
And there bemoan our insufficient fires.
Ah, that we might, in passing, raise our eyes
To meet that soaring Orb which glints above
For then should we all earthly things despise
Transported hence in all-encompassed Love.

Thus, dear Poet, gaze upward from thy task
And find thy true Muse; Glory, all unmask'd.

Frank Anthony 2004

Aha, a contemporary poet that writes like Shakespeare, I geddit. Not too bad really. Still, the word 'heaven' was a one-syllable word back in Will's day, no?

For example, Sonnet #21:

Who heaven itself for ornament doth use

And, in #93:

But heaven in thy creation did decree

Therefore,

Which falls from Heaven's Orb betwixt the showers

This line needs another syllable. May I suggest Heaven's high Orb?

Just joking. Enjoyed the read, thanks.

Nice one, Frank - I like it a lot.

speaking of shakespeare... if you have never seen or heard of the Reduced Shakespeare Company, i suggest you google them, read about them, and order their dvd. they are known for performing ALL of shakespeare's plays in under 2 hours. quite funny.