It was well worth 100 minutes and £4 - possibly the best £4 worth I've had in a long time. It is like buying a touring map of a country you intended to visit , then you can get the local maps of the bits that interest you. It suits me down to the ground, I shall use it quite a lot and I am so glad Talia narked me into buying it.

Just what we need, another version of the "Word of G-d". A a poet, Marian, surely you are aware of the loss and/or perversion regarding translations. I value your posts, but I wonder if religion is a bit too inflammatory for us high strung, over bread, and highly opinionated poets. Personally, for me it is,

Leave religion at home,
Or else we foam.

E.

I don't see where religion comes up in the discussion? Marian gives her opinion on a book she read, which we discussed in a previous discussion, and I for one value her advice.

I should probably have added it to the previous post, but couldn't remember which it was!

I'll stick to my KJV. I have read it through in its entirety, several times, but it does take at least one full year to do so. Sometimes quantity is quality. But 100 minutes is a nice intorductory course. When taking my many literature classes I have come to realize the value of all my years of Sunday school as many students my age (in their 20's) have very little or no background at all with the bible and they are at a disadvantage when it comes to interpreting literature....aside from the many other reasons.

I think the chief selling point of the 100 minute bible is that it takes the mystique of the antiquated language out of the equation and allows the reader to focus on the ideas which are being presented. I like it, though as Talia so accurately states, a working knowledge of the full biblical references is invaluable in studying western literature.

Les

Poetry, poetry - what does a bible topic have to do with poetry?

Moderators, moderators - please delete this topic.

E.

well, if you read the bible in Italian, it rhymes, but then again so does everything else

The books of Job, Pslams, the Song of Solomon, and even Ecclesiastes can be studied as poetry.

What so scary to you about the bible Elliot?

After a few Numbers, one can get paranoid

Johnny, with you, the Spirit in the Sky, takes on a whole new meaning.

Les

From the Norman Greenbaum website.....lots o humorous cat pictures too !

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2005 04:43PM by JohnnySansCulo.

Talia, dawling...

I didn't say anyting was scary, you did. And what did you learn in psych 101 about the phenomenon? (Hint - the term is "projecting")

Some Old Testament books and passeges are in verse (Psalms, etc), when read and studied in Hebrew. I don't think any of us are qualified. And no one is discussing that end of things anyway.

There are plenty of religious sites of all kinds. Proseletize there. And while you are at it, look up Cybele and Attis and the religion of Thrace.


E.

The name of this forum is General Discussion. I personally don't see why the thread should be deleted. If nothing else, the 100 minute Bible will serve as a handy literary reference. If the moderators feel otherwise, they will delete the thread without my (or anyone's) prompting them to do so.

Talia and Les, you talked about knowing the text of the Bible as being 'invaluable in studying western literature.' I agree, but my knowledge came the other way- a lot of what I know of the Bible came from literature. (insatiable bookworm-itis- we can't have a telethon because we won't stop reading long enough to turn on the television!)

pam

Maybe you don't find the Bible or the idea of a 100-minute guide to what's in it scary, E (though I do wonder why you couldn't bring yourself to include the vowel in 'God'); but you did, I think, include yourself in the description 'high strung, over bread [sic], and highly opinionated'. That's fine. It takes all kinds, etc. So if you don't like a post that mentions religion or the Bible, ignore it. I'd be willing to bet no such post will harm any e-Muler or stir up anyone to advocate or do any harm. The focus here is on literature, poetic literature in particular. If any thread in e-Mule strays far away from that and becomes an inflamed argument over religion(s), the moderators will soon shut it down.

Personally, I can't see why you thought anything in Talia's post was proselytising , or why you thought Marian's original post risked starting something inflammatory. I liked her touring map simile.

I'm puzzled what point you were making to her about 'the loss and/or perversion regarding translations'. Surely you don't contend that translations are always too perverse to be useful, or can never have literary merit in their own right.

Ian

"high strung, over bread "

a sandwich as served at the Salvador Deli

My french teacher at high school once said:
You will never be able to truly understand your culture (including its literature, which of course includes poetry) without knowing the basics about:
a) Romans
b) Greeks
c) the bible

I think she is absolutely right, and I will not remove a thread dealing with the bible as a source of study.

This is not a place to try to convince others of your religion or non-religion, Elliot. If the thread bothers you, skip it.

And while you are at it, look up Cybele and Attis and the religion of Thrace

Odd you should mention that, since I stumbled across this subject just yesterday, in another context. Looking it up in Brewer's (which I have from the library just now - I will have to purchase my own copy, since it is taking forever just to get through the first letter of the alphabet), it seems there is a great deal of castration going on, but I'm not entirely clear. What is your understanding?

a lot of what I know of the Bible came from literature.

Pam, I guess it must work both ways.


Les

IanB,

Because my orientation respects other religions, personally, I find it offensive when others don't respect that of others. And to use a poetry site to tout another version of what some, despite the multiple, compounding problem of translations, call the word of G-d, is proselytising. The utmost respect is for true discussion of theology, not proselytising. If Shakespeare were translated into French, from that into Latin, then to Russian, and then back into English, could we still call it "Shakespeare", blasphemy, or a bad joke?

And as for my using "G-d", I think those intelligent enough to fathom this site, are intelligent enough to figure it out.

And Hugh, glad you are on top of the issue, and thank you for another source; the one I was mainly aware of is THE GOLDEN BOUGH, by Sir Something. Perhaps, with all the interest this has caused, you could bring the others up to date. That at least would relate to literature, or perhaps mythology, perhaps even redeeming the intellectual level of this wayward thread. Besides, if anyone can be more diplomatic about it, I trust you can, for I, at this point am a seething caldron of contempt... ;-P

E.

Project Gutenberg has the Golden Bough by Sir James Geogre Frazer available here [www.gutenberg.org]

I last read it nearly forty years ago and only remember that kings only reigned for one year then they were sacrificed in the first furrow ploughed to ensure a good harvest.

Elliot, lighten up. If you disagree with the opinions of others, merely decline to participate. If you wish to begin a rant, espousing your lack of religious beliefs, then start another thread. To say religion has no place in poetry is simply an invalid assertion.


Les

Yeah, more mythology, especially those Norse Guys and Dolls !

May Odin grant you a bountiful harvest

Each to his own, Elliot. Surely you wouldn't maintain that e-Mulers should steer clear of mentioning, for example, Walter de la Mare's poem 'Silver' because the Assyrians and Chaldeans and various other peoples worshipped the moon?

If Shakespeare were translated into French, from that into Latin, then to Russian, and then back into English, could we still call it "Shakespeare", blasphemy, or a bad joke?

Probably none of those things, but what's the relevance of this unlikely hypothetical example?

I, at this point am a seething caldron of contempt...

Sounds painful. I'm not confident anything I can say will bring relief. Maybe you just need to follow the advice you gave to Martina in February to "get out and go dancing. Square dancing, ballroom dancing, western line dancing, ballet, tap, jazz, or Nurbium Scozoot Dancing".

Your metaphor does however remind me of a recent contretemps in the Australian Football League. The AFL has banned team coaches from making derogatory public comments about the umpires. A couple of losing team coaches were slapped by the AFL with heavy fines because they let fly at the umpires during post-match press conferences. Which is, btw, an interesting example of the maxim attributed to Queen Elizabeth I, that

        Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor.

A well-known pair of humorous radio commentators were discussing how a coach might beat the AFL restriction, and one speculated that there could be a press release that the coach was 'rumoured to be privately seething' about the umpire's performance. The other then suggested equipping coaches' boxes at football grounds with en suite 'private seething rooms', like the baby crying rooms provided by some sophisticated theaters for patrons with babes in arms.

Alas e-Mule is not structured with such a facility. There are the frivolous conversation threads of course, but they are, well, frivolous. Serious seething here may have to be done in absentia.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2005 02:58AM by IanB.

The Bible is an antique Volume—
Written by faded men
At the suggestion of Holy Spectres—
Subjects—Bethlehem—
Eden—the ancient Homestead—
Satan—the Brigadier—
Judas—the Great Defaulter—
David—the Troubador—
Sin—a distinguished Precipice
Others must resist—
Boys that "believe" are very lonesome—
Other Boys are "lost"—
Had but the Tale a warbling Teller—
All the Boys would come—
Orpheus' Sermon captivated—
It did not condemn

Emily Dickinson

Dozens of famous poets, including several here have chosen religious topics. Go here for example: [www.emule.com] Type "god" in the search box.


Les

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2005 10:27PM by lg.

As a matter of fact, this whole discussion is the indirect outcome of a question I posed some time ago, asking about translations of the bible. Nice of you to bring it up again, Elliot.

As I mentioned before, there is a new Dutch translation of the bible, which is directly translated from Hebrew and Greek of course. Not latin. Are you saying that the latest English bibles are still translated without referring to the "originals" (or as close as we can get to them?).

Before the fall of constantinople there was often no choice, as in the Western world there were few who could read greek, and little greek works left.

Then the question would be in terms of your analogy, would you prefer NO Shakespeare, or a Shakespeare that is translated and again translated. I know that Shakespeare in Dutch is still impressive, and I'm sure it still would be if someone translated it from Dutch back to English. Maybe not as impressive as now, but a shame to lose.

thank you for another source; the one I was mainly
aware of is THE GOLDEN BOUGH, by Sir Something.

I read Frazer's The Golden Bough many years ago too, but it didn't make much of an impression.

I vaguely recall that the eating of porcupines was strictly forbidden; but roasted goat liver was quite acceptable.


r.

I last read it nearly forty years ago and only remember that kings only reigned for one year then they were sacrificed in the first furrow ploughed to ensure a good harvest

Now there's an entertaining idea - suitable for all sorts of authoritarian figures - I must make a list for stress relief following news programmes.

Why is this in italics - it wasn't my idea - though I've often wished I could master how to make it happen! And why does the site take so long to get into these days?

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2005 12:02PM by lg.

Marian, your text goes into italics if you precede it with an instruction consisting of the letter i enclosed (without leaving spaces) inside the pointy brackets <>. The instruction itself becomes invisible in the post. Maybe you set out originally to quote something in your post, and that happened inadvertently.

The instruction to stop italics consists of /i enclosed in those brackets. So you should be able to get rid of your italics by an edit inserting that instruction immediately before the first word.

You can likewise start and stop bold or underlining, by using b or u instead of i.

PS inserted by 2nd edit: When I posted this, I found that your italics got carried over into my post. By my first edit I inserted the stop instruction at the start, and restored normal font in the post, but I can't change the italics in the heading. If you edit your post by inserting a stop instruction, it will be interesting to see whether that changes the heading in mine.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2005 07:34AM by IanB.

How very clever - thanks Ian! It obviously works with I as well as i, cos that appears to be how I got them in the first place

No problem, Ian, I edited out the italics. Marian whenever using html code which is what the italics font and bold font are, you must use a stop at the end of the portion which is to be highlighted. As Ian stated above that means brackets with a slash before the html symbol.


Les

The Golden Bough has a bearing on poetry, obviously, as T.S. Eliot's notes to his Wasteland indicate. That and the quest for the grail, right. All tied up with the life and death cycle of earth's seasons somehow. Less clear is how they all blend together, but such is the study of difficult poets.

I got the impression that Attis (Atys) and Cybele were from Phrygia (I will refrain from the obvious mother-phrygian jokes), but is that the same country as Thrace? Dunno. I think of Thrace more in line with modern day Turkey, and Phrygia north and east, on the other side of the Bosporus, maybe Bulgaria. Pretty close geographically, anyway.

The Demeter stuff is tied in there somehow, and she may be the same creature as Cybele. How and why Attis would have (shudder) castrated himself is unclear, and the thought of reading the entire Golden Bough download is daunting.

Surely there is some understanding reader out there who will sort it all out for me? I would do it myself, but I nod off so easily nowadays.

Hugh, Thrace and Phrygia face each other across whatever that sea is between the Hellespont and the Bosphorus, Phrygia on the Asian side, Thrace on the European. Cybele is the mother of Demeter (also wife of Chronos, mother of Zeus).

Apparently Cybele loved Attis and rather than have him go to another she drove him mad so he castrated himself and died. His spirit passed into a pine tree. All her priests were castrated.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2005 05:42PM by Linda.

Spartacus was a Thracian

Thanks, I appreciate the help. Having argued various religious issues throughout high school, college, and even after military service, I usually decline to do so any more. I was never even once able to convince anyone else to change their views, and no one had such success with me either. Fruitless endeavor, doncha know.

Still, I find it interesting when many different religions/myths share the same stories and beliefs. Take The Flood, for example. I was fascinated to learn that the same event is portrayed in Greek mythology, this time with Zeus as the instigator and Deucalion and Pyrrha in the Noah and Naamah roles. The ark ends up on Mount Parnassus instead of Ararat, which makes sense. One sees the same tale in the Gilgamesh Epic, and there is an earlier Greek one called the Ogygian Deluge.

Similar tales abound in many other culteres, which makes one suspect there really was such an event. Could have been caused by the last ice age, some 6,ooo years ago, many say. Might also have been a separation of the tectonic plates at the Hellespont/Dardanells, I would think. Plenty of earthquakes in that region even today. The Black Sea being the flooded ground, that is.

You are correct, Hugh. Check out the variety of such flood stories here: [www.talkorigins.org] />

Les

Don't you think that major flooding being such a cataclysmic and unpredictable event, and communication being at such an early stage,any and every major flood would be thought to be unique and worldwide and mytholgised accordingly. Think what an impact even fairly localised flooding has today.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2005 03:09AM by marian2.

Wow, what a lot of information on that talkorigins site, Les! Good stuff, thanks. Sadly, my library apparently has none of the referenced works, so I will have to add the Fraser and Gaster ones to my 'search internet bookstores' list.

Marian, I meant that those extremely similar tales were of particular interest. Logically, if one found an earlier and almost identical story in the Gilgamesh Epic, for example, would that not invalidate the truth of the Old Testament one? I know, I know, I promised no religious arguments, so here is some 'poetry' to stay on topic for the site:


The wife of the Ark, it is known
Was Naamah, a name that's been shown
   By onomatology,
   In today's terminology,
To be loosely translated as, Joan.

lg,

I appreciate your response, but it is not a lack of beliefs, but because of my beliefs, and, I did not say that religion has no place in poetry. JohnnySansCulo (thank you) has posted one by Dickenson, and since he would like to see some of my work, the following is included to tease the poetic cerbelum.

Emperor Claudius, a Moment Please...?
© 2005, F. E. Siemon - Not for profit reproduction granted.

‘Tis heresy, heresy, I know,
However, something needs to be said.
To many, as unwelcome as woe,
Rocking the Empire, a deed I dread.

But, sadly, there's evidence of fraud,
Handed down generations ago;
For many, something to applaud;
Forgive them, fantasy's all they know.

‘Twas a time relatively devoid –
Author's ethics - unknown - not a trace,
But many, far from being annoyed,
Religious fantasy, they embrace!

Roughly, four thousand years B.C.E.*,
From the lands of Phrygia and Thrace;
(Today, Turkey and Greece, by decree),
There, Cybele, Mother of Gods rose to grace.

The issue, that of "The Good Shepherd",
The son of Cybele by virgin birth.
She swallowed an almond, goes the word;
Food for thought, for whatever its worth.

Her ill conceived shepherd son, Attis,
Despite being beloved by all,
Ambivalent toward male status,
And those he couldn't help but enthrall...

One day seated under a pine tree –
Self emasculation he performed.
Bleeding to death, of life he was free,
Free of the many he may have warmed.

Thought grieving of the life she gave,
No son a mother's love could betray,
She brought him to a burial cave,
Attending to him without delay.

Despite the tragedy, fame beaconed.
For Attis adoration was rife;
Celebrated March twenty second,
That third day, she brought him back to life.

Emasculated priests, the Galli,
Enticing crowds with music and dance,
Wild emasculation and folly;
Votaries of Attis they entrance.

Over his effigy, their blood spilled;
Bound to a pine log with garlands strung;
Carried through the streets, revelers thrilled;
To the crowds, their precious gonads flung...

Quite surely, an engaging story,
And the delusional classes agree;
Taller the tale, greater the glory;
Strangely... the fantasy sets them free....

Emperor Claudius, we beg you –
Since our worship of Cybele, there's been,
A renaissance for Rome, quite true,
Finer crops than we can imagine;

Hannibal routed, what a blessing,
And the Empire's quite fit, won't you say;
No better an age could Cybele bring,
And to her, our homage, we may pay.

Philosophers and scholars agree,
Here, at Rome's Temple of Victory,
Holy Valatine Hill's Sacred Tree,
Lies her legacy and history.

But these delusions about her son...
The hysteric emasculation;
Only imbeciles would call that fun!
To theology, no relation.

And what captivates his devotees?
Selling of the warm fuzzy feeling,
And many delusionist it sways!
For the rest, leaves our innards reeling.

Their "Day of Blood", March twenty second;
December, twenty fifth, his birth;
To ancient pagans these dates beaconed,
To the enlightened ones, ‘tis but mirth.

Regard virgin birth as relative,
Inter their silly resurrection.
Certainly there's an alternative;
Such fantasy cries for correction.

The Empire deserves something better,
Not predator eunuch fanatics,
With their fantasy's insane fetter,
And fuzzy, warm recruiting antics.

Since reality is what most believe,
Consider a change - for those classes.
Something scholarly, we can conceive,
Something to help control the masses...


* (from the time of Claudius)

Ref: The Golden Bough, 1922,
Sir James George Frazer (1854-1941),
Chapter 36.


E.

Desi,

The Standard Revised Version of the New Testment evolved from the Greek manuscripts, which was translated into English via the King James Version, then to modern English and then into other more "readable" texts. There is no known existing Hebrew texts regarding New Testament issues. I am not saying that any translation is worthless, just that where a tranlation or interpretation of something is what one is working off of, we can not rely opon that as a definitive authority. To me, calling a translation the "Word of G-d" is a bit beyond my ethics related comprehension. Read without the religious hype, the New Testament is a Greek account, translated from Hebrew, of a rabbi, whose full name was Johua ben Joseph, who tought Judaism.

The theoretical example of Shakespeare, is only an example to illustrate the point about relying on a translation as the definitive authory. Nothing therin contained suggests NO Shakespeare.

E.

fame beaconed (?)


Les

Clearly, "beaconed" is "baconed" as in "cut into thin strips" to allow the fame to fleet more easily.

Thanks Elliot, it certainly was good to see you post this.

The Dickinson was not included merely to show that religion exists in poetry, but as a comment on the form in which scripture can be presented.

The following is from the Wikipedia article on the Gospel of Thomas from the Nag Hammadi Library regarding problems in translation:

In translating ancient texts, often the meaning of words is revealed only in abstraction, and must be transliterated, after being translated, in order for the meaning to be addressed. This is the case with all translations, as each reveals the limits and changes of languages, in the divergent tasks of; being sufficiently descriptive, and being easy to use in common speech. In the Thomas Gospels, the 66th is one famous example of how translation often differs subtly in its proper transliteration.

66. Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone." - From the "Scholars Translation" - Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer.

Compare the above translation to the below interpretation:
66. Jesus said, "Teach me concerning this stone which the builders rejected; it is the corner-stone." - Brill edition.

The use of the word "corner-stone", in the Brill edition, is inaccurate for the meaning, and the correct word is "keystone", as in the Patterson-Meyer translation. To understand the difference, we must think through the parable for its intended meaning. As in all Christian parables, the deeper meaning reflects a moral story; In this case, by the analogy of constructing of an arch:

In selecting stones for the arch, the most odd-shaped, useless stone is rejected, and cast aside. The builders select the cornerstones first; they must be strong, squarish blocks and must serve well as the foundation. As each separate pillar is built to the top, the stones are chosen for their slight curvatures, to bring the tops of the columns together.
Finally, the keystone must be selected. It must be of a particularly acute angle to accommodate the characteristics of each of the two arch halves: According to Jesus's parable, it is the stone which was first rejected, by the initial estimations of the builders, and only when the rest of the pieces are in place do they see their mistake.

Hugh,

Thank you for your post, re. Flood. Geologists confirm a worlwide flood back about pre-Cambrian times. I was just talking to a paleontolgist about it. He says that in our midwest, it was responsible for a sediment strata 600 ft. thick and that similar evidence exists from various sites worlwide for the same time period, but it was long before human life is supposed to have existed.

Religious commonalties are an interesting area, and are perhaps the result of shared ethics. Some of the items in the Hammerabi Code (which predates the Old Testament) have similar soundings in the Old Testament, namely the Ten Commandments. An interesting project for someone so inclined, is to survey all religions for commonalities - a daunting task because it means becomming thoroughly versed in all religions. If anyone was qualified it was the late Joseph Campbell (Masks of G-d).

E.

Religious glitches? The problem with translations.

[www.k-state.edu] />
From that website:

"In other words, the road to becoming a better writer lies in becoming a more demanding reader, and in accepting that ideas are arrived at in the process of writing itself. Thinking is not something "prior" that writing expresses. Writing is something that enables us to arrive at thoughts - thoughts we would want to have - better thoughts than the ones we have to begin with. As the novelist E.M. Forster once shrewdly remarked: "How do I know what I think ‘til I see what I’ve said?" If we don’t like what we see, that only means we don’t like what we thought. And that puts us in a position to discover, by tinkering, a thought more suitable to claim for our own."


Who doesn't think before they write?


Les

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2005 03:30PM by lg.

"Who doesn't think before they write?"
well, me for one, but that's a gift of a different color




This is an interesting link regarding languages used in Jesus' time:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Speaking of languages, what does a Chinese laptop look like? Anyone here ever seen one?


Les

Les, I'm assuming you don't mean just ones that are MADE in China !

[www.pages.drexel.edu]

Some interesting points in that article:

"Consequently, at present the Asian child is first taught by the classical pictographic pedagogy for personal and business correspondence, For advanced science and technology Western languages are then taught using the alphanumeric keyboard. As this latter task involves Western pedagogy, for many Asians it is far more logical to simply learn a western orthographic language rather than expending considerable effort on pictographic language for a very limited end. Ultimately, the result will be the decline of the pictographic languages, and with technological advancement, their eventual disappearance altogether except for isolated communities and scholarly research."

and

"To disassociate reading from writing requirements, combined as they are in language learning in virtually all societies, will require basic cultural changes because such a disassociation can only be achieved by relegating calligraphic skills to secondary importance. This eventuality can be particularly dislocating in societies in which esthetics in general and calligraphy in particular are held in high esteem.

Nevertheless, the overwhelming advantage of this dissociative approach in promoting literacy is that reading and transmission can be taught in infancy before motor functions are sufficiently developed to learn calligraphic skills, as is possible using the Bicameral Keyboard. Young children can learn keystroke skills far more rapidly and at an earlier age than they can linestroke skills. Essentially, skill in calligraphy is as necessary in recognizing a particular pictographic character as skill in portraiture is necessary in recognizing a particular person. They are separate endeavors."


I guess they are Googling their way into Anglo-oriented philosophy through the techological port hole.


Les

[www.mrsneeze.com]

I like your philosophy Johnny, but I still wouldn't vote for you:

[www.godsambassadors.com] />

Les

Well, the vote is in.......

[en.wikipedia.org]

Chicken, or waffles?


"...every belief is always a system of beliefs that together constitute a world view. All confirmation and disconfirmation of a belief presuppose such a system and are internal to the system. For all this [Wittgenstein] was not advocating a relativism, but a naturalism that assumes that the world ultimately determines which language games can be played... The considerations of On Certainty are evidently directed against both philosophical skeptics and those philosophers who want to refute skepticism. Against the philosophical skeptics Wittgenstein insisted that there is real knowledge, but this knowledge is always dispersed and not necessarily reliable; it consists of things we have heard and read, of what has been drilled into us, and our modifications of this inheritance. We have no general reason to doubt this inherited body of knowledge, we do not generally doubt it, and we are, in fact, not in a position to do so. But On Certainty also argues that it is impossible to refute skepticism by pointing to propositions that are absolutely certain, as Descartes did when he declared 'I think, therefore I am' indubitable, or as Moore did when he said, 'I know for certian that this is a hand here.' The facts that such propositions are considered certain, Wittgenstein argued, indicates only that they play an indispensable, normative role in our language game; they are the riverbed through which the thought of our language game flows. Such propositions cannot be taken to express metaphysical truths... the conclusion is that all philosophical argumentation must come to an end, but that the end of such argumentation is not an absolute self-evident truth, but a certain kind of normal human practice."
~Hans Sluga

Les

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2005 04:37PM by lg.

"Who doesn't think before they write? "

We all think to some extent before we write, but I think Forster is arguing that we shouldn't then stop thinking, write what we thought and leave it at that. We should think as we write and after we've written and use our writing to refine our thoughts and our thoughts to refine our writing.

Personally I write for the brief time that I can remember what has occurred to me, then rewrite as I refine it, but I can perfectly accept that there are people who do all or almost all the thinking first and only then committ it to paper. They are the ones that don't need the edit button. To me, all Forster is doing is saying 'this is the way everyone who writes anything worthwhile must do it, because that is the way I do it and I can't conceive of any other way working'.

"Consequently, at present the Asian child is first taught by the classical pictographic pedagogy for personal and business correspondence, For advanced science and technology Western languages are then taught using the alphanumeric keyboard. As this latter task involves Western pedagogy, for many Asians it is far more logical to simply learn a western orthographic language rather than expending considerable effort on pictographic language for a very limited end. Ultimately, the result will be the decline of the pictographic languages, and with technological advancement, their eventual disappearance altogether except for isolated communities and scholarly research."

If that were the case it would really be a shame. However I am confident that an analytical language like Chinese is the lingua franca of the future. The use of pictographs may be holding it back for now (as long as the world economy is still dictated by the US and "the West" and that determines what is the best language to communicate in), but on the other hand it is the pictographs that open up different ways of thinking, new approaches - and that is its potential.

I found Chinese very easy and fun to learn. My reading skills are obviously better than my writing skills - but that is due to the lack of practice. The same goes for my English or my French.

There was a time when one couldn't use diacritics on a computer - so even personal names had to be changed, mutilated to fit the English or at least a non Slavic alphabet. In fact local government in Trieste/Trst, Italy still refuses to use a more modern programme made especially for this purpose in Gorizia/Gorica that would allow the names of the (autochtone) Slovenian minority on their identity cards be spelled correctly, with č, ž and š. The reason is of course local politics in Trieste/Trst (as italian nationalism sadly still wins a lot of votes), but I won't go into that here. In Gorizia/Gorica there is no such problem - they got Rome to approve their new, improved version of the programme and Lucka Spacapan can now be Lučka Špacapan. Where there is a will, there is a way.

---

As for the other debate (joining in a bit late in the game) - I would add this: Even in Greek it would be more appropriate to call it the words of early Christians - if one wants to make it all about facts. The authors of the four official gospels were not the four evangelists as texts were written almost a century later and probably by more authors. And even if they were, comparing all the four gospels (not to mention all the apocrypha) one gets the sense of watching Rashomon.
The truth it seems is often not just about facts and the "videmus nunc per speculum et in aenigmate" still seems to apply.

But it is impossible to understand a culture without its myths/stories/books. Imagine how strange the Ufizzi must seem to someone who knows nothing about Christianity. Most of us (believers or not) still have most of that cultural knowledge as a given.

V.

Veronica, dawling... so nice to have your with us. You might have been dying for someone to ask. It might as well be me. What or whom is or are the Ufizzi? Searching that, comes up with a Museum in Florence, but likely that is not your meaning. Surely, all of us dangling on this thread are just dying to know, and better yet if it has something to do with the poetic word. After all this is a poety site.

E.

lg,

Thank you for the interesting post. "... argues that it is impossible to refute skepticism by pointing to propositions that are absolutely certain, as Descartes did when he declared 'I think, therefore I am' indubitable, or as Moore did when he said, 'I know for certian that this is a hand here.' The facts that such propositions are considered certain..."

Impossible to refute skepticism with ablsolutely certain propositions? Why... it is done all the time. It is called the Scientific Method. The point is to arrive at an as absolute determination as possible of something via physical, mathematical, or philosophical proofs. Proofs are based largely on axioms. The axiom that kicked off this most popular thread is that translations are not the genuine article, and to call it such is (to me), blasphemy or a bad joke, or both.

E.

Veronika Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I found Chinese very easy and fun to learn. My
reading skills are obviously better than my
writing skills - but that is due to the lack of
practice.

I'm jealous- my problem with Asian languages is doing the tones- I can't hear the difference most of the time.

pam

Veronika, correct me if I'm wrong, but I take your meaning as.....what's with all the paintings of women and babies, and bearded guys getting executed?

Johnny, I don't recall any crying kids in the photos, but you might find it intesting that Jesus was not depicted with a beard until the Renaisance, nor were there any artistic portrayals of Jesus on the cross before that time.


Les

Wow, the Rennaisance was in the 4th century? Damn, ya learn sumpting every day !

Pam, no need to envy me. My prononciation could surely do with spending some time in China. I couldn't get around learning Swedish - I just didn't hear the melody of it. So I decided to give it up, at least for now.

Johnny, you're spot on, as usual. The same goes of course for works that are based on Greek mythology - to imitate your witty style I could dub the Birth of Venus as " the naked bird on a shell".

Veronika

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2022 04:28PM by Veronika.

speaking of which:

[www.xs4all.nl]

Don't encourage him, Veronika, he'll only post more.

The Renaissance was not in the 4th century, but since nobody had a wristwatch they were unaware that time had gotten away from them.


Les

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2022 02:06PM by lg.

Just so we're clear:

Depictions of Jesus of Nazareth as a bearded individual began in the 4th century after the discovery or resurgence of the Image of Edessa.

Depictions of the actual crucifixion began in the late 6th century

Yes, Les, I DO read more than comic books

Please refrain from posting inaccurate information in the future

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2022 03:17PM by JohnnySansCulo.

Johnny, could you show me the source of that info. Any thing is possible on the internet: [www.google.com] />

Les

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2022 03:59PM by lg.

Unfortunately in this day and age, it's better to know the website than to just KNOW something !

but i did, at least, find the image from the Rabbula Gospels dated 596 :

[www.wisc.edu]

and a list of portraits from the era:

Christ Pantocrator, icon, at St. Catherine's Monastery, Sinai (550 CE)
Byzantine Justinian II solidus, coin (695 CE)
Icon at St. Ambrose, icon, now in Milan (700s)
Christ Enthroned, mosaic, in the narthex of Hagia Sophia Cathedral (850 - 900)
Christ Pantocrator, dome mosaic, in a church in Daphni (1050 - 1100)
Christ the Merciful, mosaic icon, now in a Berlin museum (1000s)
Christ Pantocrator, apse mosaic, in Cefalu Cathedral, Sicily (1148)

Veronika Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

The same goes of
course for works that are based on Greek mythology



I saw a visiting exhibition from the Uffizi here last year.

This one gets me every time -

[www.griseldaonline.it] />

Johnny, if I can find the source of my info. I'll post the link. Here's one link I read, there is another one also: [www.bibleorigins.net] />
Les

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2022 08:24PM by lg.

Les, if you didn't say "renaissance", I would be giving you no argument.

My understanding is that the renaissance began in say 1300?

It seems that there is some concerns to dating prior to the 6th century, but none afterwards.

[en.wikipedia.org] />

Johnny, believe me, the source (which I'm still hunting) said that images of Christ before 1300 showed him beardless, which was contrary to everything I had read before.

Now I'll be up half the night trying to find the site. Some may wonder what all this has to do with poetry, but I'm sure Elliot will understand.


Les

I believe you.....but it's clear that if they said such a thing, it is an incorrect statement.

300 maybe...no pre Edict of Milan beard portrayals

Not particularly surprisingly, early artists almost always portrayed biblical figures resembling their own people, Caravaggio had them with Italian features, Friedrich with German, and so on. Well, perhaps not Hieronymus Bosch, but he was kinda strange anyway.

[tinyurl.com] />
[tinyurl.com] />
I remember working my way through the Time Life Books series on artists once. I belive the earliest one offered was Giotto, from 1270 or so. Are there surviving works from the Dark Ages or before? I cannot recall any. Cave paintings in France, sure, but what else?

Point of trivia - what was Hieronymus Bosch's real name? Answer below.

















Jerome van Aeken, right.

Hugh, there are certainly quite a number of paintings from Ancient Egypt, from Pompeii and Herculaneum that survived.

Post-Constantine though, and throughout the Dark Ages, not so much. Mosaics and manuscripts held up a lot better.

Here's some good examples.

[www.touregypt.net]

And there's the Lichfield and Lindisfarn gospels from the 7th century.

In the serious debate earlier in this thread about the merits or or otherwise of translating the Bible books from their original languages, it may be light relief - even if not strictly relevant - to recall an anecdote (perhaps apocryphal, but sounds plausible) about Oscar Wilde as an Oxford undergraduate.

All undergraduates there must during their first year pass examinations known as 'moderations', to be allowed to continue at the University. In Oscar's day, the moderations for his course included a divinity exam in which the requirement was to translate orally from the original Greek version of one of the Gospels. Oscar was handed, I think, the Gospel of St John and asked to translate the part recounting the passion story. He rendered it into English with such accuracy and fluency that the examiners quickly declared themselves satisfied. Oscar kept on translating however, and the examiners had to press him to stop; to which he replied "Oh, do let me go on! I want to see how it ends."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2022 08:15AM by IanB.

Reading this I had to laugh. Thanks, Ian, for posting it. Oscar Wilde had such a wonderful sense of humor - I love reading his stuff. And I have come to think he was right after all: life imitates art, not the other way around.