The recent thread on R. P. Warren's "What voice at moth hour" got me thinking about the word dusk. Merriam Webster says it is the darkest part of twilight or of dawn. But it is often used interchangeably with twilight, even in non poetic uses such as civil dusk/twilight. Leaving the dictionaries aside, do you sense the difference? How would you describe it.

TIA,
V.

I have never known the word dusk to be used in relation to dawn.

To me the subtle difference between twilight and dusk is that the latter word has more a sense of change, of getting darker. I also think of it as being a darker stage of the evening than mere twilight. In midsummer in Finland I have seen people playing tennis by twilight. It's an enjoyable time of day, seemingly lasting unchanged for hours. But when dusk comes, they have to stop playing, because the ball can't be seen any more.

The Scots have the word 'gloaming' (looks like a variant of English 'glooming') which I sense can describe both twilight and dusk, but you probably need a native of Scotland to tell you whether it's more synonymous with one than the other.

Ian

As Ian said, there's still light at twilight, as in the "twilight's last gleaming"

There is no gleaming when it's dusk

So, what exactly is twilight, then? I always thought "dusk" was when it changes to dark from day. for example, every 4th of July my little town does a fireworks show and the time is "dusk". So we all come when its still light out and when it gets dark they start the fireworks. Well, that's what I think of when someone says "dusk".

In my mind without the aid of the dictionary, my connotation of "dusk" is that it is synonomous with sunset, the time when darkness falls. "Twilight" has a similar connotation, but in common parlance has a wider span, and technically refers to the time just before sunset.

Les

Back to COD.

dusk // n., adj., & v.
n.
1 the darker stage of twilight.
2 shade; gloom.
adj. poet. shadowy; dim; dark-coloured.
v.tr. & intr. poet. make or become shadowy or dim.
[Old English dox ‘dark, swarthy’, doxian ‘darken in colour’]

twilight // n.
1 the soft glowing light from the sky when the sun is below the horizon, esp. in the evening.
2 the period of this.
3 a faint light.
4 a state of imperfect knowledge or understanding.
5 a period of decline or destruction.
[Middle English, from Old English twi- ‘two’ (in uncertain sense) + light1]

Those seem to agree with my feelings. Light levels are falling during twilight, but by dusk it's getting dark.

To further obfuscate such a crepuscular, tenebrous and umbrageous issue, howcum there is a gloaming but no present verb to gloam? Well, mebbe it existed previously, but several dictionaries I looked at claimed it to be a 'back-formation' from gloaming.

Which Webster's edition says dusk is synonymous with dawn? That is a new one for me.

[www.onelook.com]

And, back to poetry, how many poems can you think of that use the word gloaming?

I got Dorothy Parker's Song in a Minor Key, Swinburne's Nephelidia, Lowell's First Snowfall, and at least two by Frost (Flower Gathering and Asking for Roses).

I thought a gloaming was an illuminated dynasty

>Which Webster's edition says dusk is synonymous with dawn? That is a new one for me.

Sounds like somebody read a note such as: "compare dawn" next to the definition of dusk and assumed they meant the same, when in fact they are opposites.

Note that OneLook defines dusk as "that time immediately following sunset. Which would coincide with the idea that it is the time moths begin to fly toward artificial light; hence: "moth hour".

[www.onelook.com]

[www.onelook.com]


Les

> "Twilight" ... technically refers to the time just before sunset.

I think the dictionaries show that technically twilight is after sunset. But in common parlance it can include a period of reduced light shortly before sunset, for instance if the sun goes behind trees or low clouds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 03:51AM by IanB.

2000, electronic edition - but it says "the darker part of twilight OR of dawn.

Gloaming is a new word for me. Thank you, Ian.

Thanks to all, for shedding some light on it :-)
V.










Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 04:23AM by Veronika.

Hugh, gloam is listed in several dictionaries: [www.onelook.com]

Les

between the dusk and twilight
a line is drawn that's fine
But it's so hard to see it
It's where the sun don't shine

>It's where the sun don't shine

It's in England?


Les

I'ts twilight time
at Meridian Prime

It's only 13 degrees in London, dang that's cold. Only Bruce might say that that's not cool for this time of year. [wwwa.accuweather.com]


Les



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 02:35PM by lg.

What do you mean, "That's cold"? That's the night temperature, it's been hot enough today to cause thunderstorms and the first test at Lords is going England's way.

Here's the 5-day forecast, Linda [weather.yahoo.com]

Here's the 5-day forecast for Turlock

[weather.yahoo.com]


Les

In India, we have a very beautiful word in Hindi (origin sanskrit) for twilight, which is godhuli. "Go" is the sanskrit word for cows and "dhul" means dust. The twilight is that time of the day when the cowherds bring home the cows, and the herds kick up the dust on the dry village roads, obscuring and making gentler the harsh Indian sun.

I asked a Scotsman today what he understood by the gloaming, and he said it's when the sun is down but it's still light enough to see to avoid the potholes and the ditches when walking to or from the village pub !

> gloam is listed in several dictionaries: [www.onelook.com]

And in the SOED.

> howcum there is a gloaming but no present verb to gloam? Well, mebbe it existed previously, but several dictionaries I looked at claimed it to be a 'back-formation' from gloaming.

Maybe the same way we have 'morning' without a present verb 'to morn'.

This is my weather [weather.yahoo.com]
and it is cooler today.

Your weather in Turlock is just too hot.

>Your weather in Turlock is just too hot.

This is nothing, wait until mid-July to late August. ;)

Les

And the song "Roaming in the gloaming"
[sniff.numachi.com]